Camaign to start development - Epic!

Actually, I fo know the difference, but since I couldn't put the tons of different things needed, I put that into the triggers area. Triggers are relatively easy, and anyone can do it, like object editing (with the proper time).

As for getting this beast off the ground, I am currently looking into another site to host it, since this one said a big ol' "NO".

Shame. :nono:

Ohh, Immelman, I now see what you meant about saving the kingdom... you mean the storyline.

Thing is, the path will be a different experience depending on which kingdom you choose, and how you play it. I'm guessing that 3 endings per kingdom would suffice (to say the least), as I'm pretty sure that keeping it at about 5-7 kingdoms, with lands in between, will be fine. Certainly, towns and provinces will litter the area, but won't have "too" many direct undertaking in the story or plot itself. Also, although I'm not saying now, no mater what kingdom you choose, an underlying plot will take place, to explain why things are happening the way they are, and delving into the history of the nations a little more, as you literally walk right into this world.

Again, After I get a hosting area, it will move much smoother. If I have to start this all alone, so be it, until I get the people to do modelling, skinning, triggers, etc.

Is this your first project? if yes then it is way too big. Start by something small or join an other project. but this is way too big.

You people... Why is it so hard to think that we should make something big for once? I haven't been in this site for more than 6 months, but I can already see the need for something bigger and better. Is the FPS mod too big? Nooo... So why is this so big?

From my point of view, it's worth working on. Something that people will feel good about playing, and will recomend to others. Something that can be notable in the WC3 library, without trying to switch genres. The RPG was incorporated poorly into the WC3 engine, probably because its a strategy game! But all the ingredients for a great game is there.
I am no "n00b", and would appreciate if every post coming this way weren't so negative. Like it says in my sig, I am going to go it alone pretty soon, and if I can get extra help, great.

Please people, what is the big problem with this idea? It hasn't been done before on this scale, and should be embraced, don't you think?

I think you should go on with the project no matter what :D I fully suport you but I can't offer any assistance...:(
I know this post I made isn't very useful but at least it is something other than keep getting negative posts...

I won't deny that this project looks really good. All I was saying is that if you are not familiar with Warcraft's World Editor then you should just forget about this project.

Also it is true that it is something that has never been done before. but since it hasn't. You should perhaps delay this huge project to make a smaller one similar to this one. Just smaller to get familiarise yourself with thez triggers and all the requirments needed for it.

Also I think that the main reason this isn't getting a lot of members is because no one has ever seen something like this before, It isn't the size. So by making a smaller map or two using this idea and then releasing it to the public then you will show that it is possible, and if you show that it is possible and you make it good. You will undoubtedly get a lot of help.

Also because you only ask for pros in your map, it might lead to some people not wanting to join as they are scared that their skills aren't good enough for you. So you should let everyone have a go and you keep the best ones. Also many mods started with some noobs who couldn't do a proper terrain. And after a few weeks working on the mod, they could make blizzard-standard maps. So you shoudl maybe let everyone have a go at it.

Thing is, I can't have noobs woking on this project. I look for ambitious people, willing to work on something ground-breaking.

I don't feel this project will need a "smaller" version, otherwise the bigger one wil get over-shadowed, should it be succesful. I am currently finding some more support from other sites, so I can get more views on the story and concept. WC3C for some reason, didn't want anything to do with it, and I don't know why.
...But they would house the FPS project... Just makes me sad.
I'll keep this thread posted if I should find a place for it.

just rememebr that:
All ambitious people were noobs at the begining.

HarlequinKnight... I'm probably going to take a larger role in your team - as in, actually join it. Let me know where you're getting it hosted, if you succeed, and for what reasons... I'm interested in knowing what impresses people about this - the potential size or the potential complexity. Also, PM me everything you've written down, and describe the rest if you wish, as I'll want to improve your campaign world with my initial ideas, not contradict it.

While you're working on the story, I'll try to design some unrelated side-quests that might involve the PC himself as a central character. Here's an idea I have, which might or might not be contested: provide NPC heroes that wander the land, carrying out odd jobs available to the player and sometimes competing with the him after he accepts a side-quest. In other words, if the player doesn't hurry with his missions, the mop-up squad will forfeit his attempt and cause him to gain an inferior reward (like getting a better price, but no reward, for bringing the palace zoologist a live swamp animal, or getting a smaller choice of rewards, as one of them has already been collected). It shouldn't be hard to script the AI for heroes going on standard side-quest... I bet a simple AI could cleave its way through the Durotar campaign with ease, and your game probably isn't assuming that the heroes must stick around the city early on to camp for aggros. Having multiple heroes, even if they're nothing more than patrolling bots that can be talked to and competed with, improves the feeling that this is a dynamic game. Especially if the NPC heroes are near the PC at the time when a quest is given - in this case, the NPCs might offer to join forces with the PC if the quest is going poorly.

The only problem I see is that some people might save before going into dialogs, for fear that they might receive quests they don't intend to go on. However, if there's an advantage to having the NPC heroes become stronger, which equals the experience/gold advantage of doing things yourself, the player won't have any reason to fear getting quests too early. Another way to fix this would involve relegating the NPCs to "random" quests, the sort that Daggerfall had. That way, it really doesn't matter if an NPC "snatches" a quest or not, as the PC can always get another random quest.

I also have this very strange and radical idea for communication in general - a "talk" ability, present in the standard actions menu. Rather than instantly communicate with anyone the PC comes into contact with (this would be unrealistic), he might and initiate a small dialog menu, or just carry out an automatic conversation. This is something that should be established early on - what sort of dialogs are we using, exactly? Real multi-choice dialog? Concept-based multi-choice? Predetermined automatic? (that is, the PC specifies a conversation style and uses it in all his dialogs until switching to another one) Or just fully automatic?


Let me reinforce what Kyanou said... There actually is such thing as an ambitious newbie, especially if we're talking about a newbie to WC3 triggering that paid attention to his high-school programming classes. It's not knowledge you should be looking for, but talent and dedication - the former can always be developed, especially if one has the affinity and willpower to do so. Rather than capability, stress the team member's willingness to stay on the project. If anyone proves to be chronically unskilled, there's always the option of giving him useful, simple and gratifying tasks until the end of the project - I'm sure there's going to be an abundance of these.

As for what everyone said regarding how difficult this project might be... Pweh. It isn't hard, and it's been done before. Just not with the warcraft 3 engine.

I'm also surprised at the negative reaction to something big and new. I will fully try to support anyone willing to join the project, whether it's a major job or not. Also, should I get the thing hosted (looking at warcraftiii.net, and another site), poeple interested in just being a part of the world will be able to request npc's made after them, or suggest side-quests. Not only would this include the public, but the number of quests and ideas would grow considerably.

Anvil, I can easily tell you've lingered for a long time in NWN, the way you approach the dialogue option. I think a multiple chioce, reflecting different mroals and views, would be appropiate, but it would need to be sized down to 3 instead of the ton in nwn.

As for the npc's in particular, I think they should vary. If we have a blacksmith selling wares, they should stand still and act like a store (similar to nwn). On certain occasions, we could have them act as more, but otherwise...
NPC's that would require more work would be more important. A knight who is about to die, tells you of a battle up the road, or warning of bandits, could be used to ask you to give a message to his family, save his lord, run and warn the kingdom, etc. Another thing I really want to reflect is a sense of realism. Like it or not (I'm still checking this idea out), we could actually model the world after the actual earth, to pull in those less interested in a fantasy world. On the contrary, this world is radically changed, not really reflecting the earth at all, but related distantly.
Although it's all in the story of the lands, I really "didn't" want to conform tothe same old "The world is shattered after the apocalypse, bringing war to the land". Although, in a sense, this is what happened, it takes on it's own life in terms of magics, lands, and cultures.
Another option is to set into a world that we all know, such as the world of Dragonlance, DnD, forgotten realms... it's all related in a way, but they each offer different views on different things. Only problem is, this would require some careful thought on how we are to exploit the world, and what we would do in terms of expand it. Ideas for units and hereos would come easier, but it still offers different downfalls.

I'm going to run by the ideas for gameplay, units, heroes, thoughts on the story, and some current ideas for background, and lands. I have come to like the first idea, of an altered world, so we can convene the old gods and cultures, without looking out of place.

Again, I'll tell you when I get a host, so we can actually get something down permanantly. :foot:

Hi HarlequinKnight.

First of all, i dont want to be negative, and i don't want to push you down, as indeed you have a big ambitious project at hands. But i really must just comment on this a bit.

For example, the reason why Wc3Campaigns turned you down is really simple :/ you are alone at the moment....and you don't seem to have the skills you need to get much of this done. Sure you have incredible story telling and a immense world, but that's still just words. You need to gather people, which brings me to the second point:

You can't really expect 6 (?) "proffesional" map makers to come around the corner and start this map with you...becouse all current "proffesional" map makers (and i know most of them) are pretty much completely way over their own heads in work...which is logical, they all have their own ambitions and are carrying their own projects that they want to be done. And indeed they are doing it, but for this reason...they don't really even check out this forums, as they're busy as hell, and if they aren't, they don't go searching for it, but rather create their own.

And when you request solely for proffesionals, it's only logical that you won't get any jobs. I don't really know how i can help you find people, but it's important to keep the doors open, accept past work, don't ask for proffesionals, just ask for "loyal" stuff. That way you can see what people are good and stuff like that. For example, terraining isn't really a proffesional job, if a guy joins up who wants to terrain, he'll definetely start terraining, and if he isn't all that "proffesional" he'll definetely pick up alot of skill just during the second map he creates... same with items, objects, units and stuff like that.

Another thing is...you can't really expect many modelers or skinners to jump at the offer. Especially modelers, as that is both a very difficult subect in WC3 and there are just so few of good ones, and teh only ones...are locked up in other projects. Skinners you have a better chance at getting, as there are many fair drawers around and it's not hard to get it in-game.

But, the thing i'm most surprised at, is your view of triggerers, and triggering in general. I mean, sure, it's easy to trigger, f.ex. create a tower-defense periodic unit-spawner. But...anything more than that takes really long, and can be very difficult, as how warcrafts scripting system (or jass) is created.

F.ex.

Dynamic lands...This feat is in it own is tough to do... Warcrafts cache system is not all that great, and to do this, you have to f.ex. store an quick-growing number of data in there. That gets read whenever opening a new map, and from there...needs to set up EVERYTHING. F.ex. if you decide to have this, you'll need to think about it the whole way through, f.ex. units? no go, you have to spawn them up by triggers at start...npc's? need to be appointed by triggers, castles town? nope, have to be "built" manually with triggers...as a certain state might have them destroyed... I hope you're understanding this.

Difficulty... This is also a thing that you haven't thought about... This in itself is a really tough thing to do in rpg's, you will likely have to code a enemy-difficulty adjuster to give your hero's something to do, as the hero can so quickly grow immensly powerful and have nothing to do...atleast in this kind of "giant" non-linear world... I mean, take the orc campaign...It has a general difficulty, which is low as hell, you'll soon bust up everything coming at you, becouse the whole "land" is set at a level, (as it's not linear), so when you get more powerful enough, you'll walk through it easily, now imagine your giant country, story-wise and game-play wise, the creep-difficulty has to be low enough for the level 1-4 hero to be able to survive on his own, then when the hero is level 12, he'll be able to walk the whole country (considering that there are many starting-points depending on choice) and he'll constantly meet generally easy units (ofcourse unless he goes to a dungeon which is easier to make hard).
But yeah, to code a difficulty system is hard, although i have done so myself for HQ, it's not a thing to underestimate.

UnitSpawning and unit control. Will the units be pre-placed and that set number, so when you can kill everything on the map, and it'll be clear...if not, then you need some really smart triggers to create them for you... Now this...with the difficulty-control...is a very hard thing, I was just lately creating one myself, and it's not anything that "everybody" can do.

Cacheing... This is a major thing you have to count on...and it'll be your greatest enemy, as you'll constantly be making choices. What will you store between maps? F.ex. if you reenter a land...the whole area will be shrouded by fog...unless you make your poor triggerer create a system to store the area-visited...which is not easy. Next, creeps?, NPC's? towns? doors? quests? ...

NPC interactions...only the lines of code needed to handle the lines of text is enourmous. You need to sort everything through. as your world is so dynamic. F.ex. you are a enemy in your current country, and come up to it's king, killing footmen in the way... standing beside him. What will he say? "hi, welcome"? That's what i mean, you'll have to control everything... WITH TRIGGERS :) and again, not nearly "everybody" can do this.

What i'm trying to say is, realize the whole project a little better, and i really think you have to study a bit more the warcraft engine + it's limits. Story + World is definetely not the most important thing... The more important thing for you (the planner) is to think "in detail" how EVERYTHING will work...and this is where you're knowledge of the warcraft engine, and it's limits (and triggers) come in. You have to decide, HOW you're gonna do everything you want...and in a manner that won't bore the player.

F.ex. deciding to do multi-choice conversations...are you then gonna display a text to player, and let him type in choice "1", "2" or "3"? ... stuff like that, i mean, f.ex. this would get kinda boring pretty fast.

But yeah, definetely *do not* underestimate the complexity of the triggers of this map. And instead of reading books about different religion (which in itself is pretty cool, and appropriate for a story-creator, but *not* for project-leader) You need to apropriately "plan" how you are gonna do all the things you want to, Inside the warcraft engine that is... and not with unlimited access to whatever models you want (believe me, you won't get a *good* modeler that easily/quickly, i should know).

Cubasis

pm, check out the hosted project in my sig, the .j file in it (jass file) is 800 kb's uncompressed....that is...say 100.000 words of code...

pm2, about the FPS mod, first of all, it's not completely known if it will even continue...and the reason it exists, is that some "proffesional" people in the community decided to have fun and try to create one...and as they are big/well-known, it was easy to gather people wacky enough to be along. But yeah, there is a strong sense of community behind the big cover and the 2000 people using the map dev. I mean, behind it all are a number of "proffesional" map makers that hang around and chat (on our irc server) and everybody know everybody there (of those people). So for them, to start a project, is considerably easier (both of their immense knowledge of the wc3 engine, and the fact that all "proffesional" map makers, know them "well" so they know it'll be real for sure and that it's "proffesional".

pm3, Hah, this is so giant post, sorry about it's size, but yeah, again, i'm honestly not trying to hurt your feelings, or be "negative", but any ways. */me wonders if this part even gets read, as the reader likely gave up a long time ago* Likely the most gigantic post ever posted here on these forums. Hah!

Reply to Cubasis40

Probably that IS the reason why he is turned down. But still, this is not the only site who hosts :D So, the project can still come from the ground and I am pretty sure that enough talented people will come and help. But like you said Moddelers are rare at the moment (skinners are enough though) but it IS possible to make it without new models. It will be somewhat diffrent but it IS possible. And of course He or any other who helps can still learn to model... (Then again you won't get too good models) But you siad that those who work on project(s) are not coming here anymore? Then you're wrong. I as example still come here though I am working on 2 projects.

Searching for Proffesionals is indeed not always the best thing you could do...(not trying to brag but I am no proffesional but I am better then the average terrainer/triggerer) But you could just ask for people to help. If they can't do the thing you expect you can always give them other jobs or ask them to leave or something. Proffesionals are pretty rare as well at the moment, and as usual they are rare always :D But what I wrote felt a bit like Cubasis40 wrote...oh well...

The triggers will be by far the most biggest problem and there will only be a few who can do it. There are enough triggerers here but hardly any who can do all that! I think that you need multiple triggerers for it. It is VERY hard to do it alone. I know most of the triggers I think is needed for it but I don't think I'll be able to do them all. (too much work, I can't handle that)

To not make yourself TOO strong around the middle of the game (like you said fighting against creeps for lv1/4) I have a solution for that! Why not make a trigger to make some creeps stronger over time. Every creature becomes stronger after all. Making it more fair for the player AND giving more experience. But at a certain time some creeps will be VERY strong and even hard to beat at high levels. So the characters won't creep all that much anymore. What is that for an idea?

Well the creature spawning could be made intresting. As example in a big forest there is a big Spider (cave) that breeds multiple eggs there. Those eggs hatch and any spider that comes at the map, move to a random position on playeble map or 'Patrol' them. So they always will be moving. Or you could give them the 'wander' ability.

NPC interactions is something I like to do. I really like reading and writing (so I didn't had any problem by reading your post) but I don't know what other people think about it. But after thinking of such an idea, I am pretty sure he has enough fantasy/ideas to give good interactions. If not then I am sure other peolple will give him ideas. If not then I am still willing to help by ideas. (Like I said before I can't help much because I already work on 2 projects and I have RSI (Can't type too much otherwise my arm will hurt))

I think he detailed most out already, if not then I suggest to do it before to start working on a huge project such as this. I have a small feeling how it feels to work on such a project because I thought of something like this myself but failed horrirbly because I wasn't experienced enough back then. So I still have loads of ideas. But still yeah, it is hard to do because of the who knows how many triggers are needed. One day you'll get tired by making so much triggers (at least I became tired)... at least to get the player keep playing it is by giving many quests diffrent endings so you will have a real twist in the story. And as example. some quests doesn't want you to do it anymore because of certain reasons (as example your last quests was completed and because of that you became a castle guard, the other quest that was running was to steal something in the castle) But that all can be done only once again, it costs much time and MANY TRIGGERS.

Personally I like reading such a long post but I don't think many people will like it. (Normally I write such things too but not always on the forum...and I can't write much more because of my arm :() Anyway some day I'll beat you and create a even longer post then this :ggani: Anyway I just wanted to answer your post.d

Thanks for your time
Dark Dragon

Well, first of all, I fully understand where both of you are coming from. I consider myself a professional skinner, although I have next to no knowledge of modelling, so that would be a pretty large gap. Sure, I could make some custom skins to fit certain models, but when it comes to certain models, it would definitly give a much more professional, indepth, immersve experence to see the actual units the way they should be seen.

Next, I have no problem with long posts, as I usually end up doing them myself. In fact, looking at the first post would tell you that.

Due to the current state of affairs around this site, I'm going to post-pone development until January. This will allow people to get the contest campaigns out of the way, give people a break from the holidays, and let me really fine tune this story, concept, and maybe even start on the characters.

I will keep looking for a site to host it, and I'll post a thread here when it's ready to start up again. Hopefully I can see all you people there when the time comes... Only because I think it would be a shame to miss out on a project like this.
Clear your schedule for that time, if you can, and look in here for the thread announcing it's....uh... triumphal, yea thats it, return!

Until then- Harlequin :foot:

yeah, I guess that you picked a rather bad time to advertsie your project with the contest happening all the good people are busy with it.
Anyways, good luck in finding a hosting place and members. I really look forward to see this project come true.

The dynamic lands thing isn't that hard to achieve, if you limit the ammount of things that are actually dynamic. I could probably invent a mathematical structure that, although mostly invisible, determined such things as what items appear in stores and how many unemployed are available to replace dead shopkeepers or whatnot. If plot NPCs were the only ones assigned names, then the game could place a new Gothic Blacksmith or Persian Astronomer in the old one's place if the city had at least one "unemployed men". This structure would keep track of everything that happens in the game and where mobile units can be found, then calculate movement speeds to determine where they are spawned. For instance, in times of peace, a caravan goes through region A's northern road, stops for a few days at the village in the map's center, then carry on to the southern end of the map. Presuming that the roads are relatively straight, all you have to do is store the actual distances somewhere, then calculate the time spent in that area, to obtain the location of the caravan. It's not at all hard to do, and the game probably won't reach this depth in terms of dynamism anyway.

Same goes for difficulty. If the game offers a variety of options, like a true RPG should, this wouldn't be a problem at all. If enemies are too tough, hire mercenaries or find some way to weaken them. If nothing else works, leave the enemies alone and hope whatever problem has arisen will take care of itself. If it's the main quest we're talking about... Shame on the designer for not coming up with a non-combat way to solve it. Both you and mentioned creeps, or wandering supply depots, and how hard it is to create them... I can't understand why, as the only thing you have to do is check whether heroes are nearby (a radius of x from the spawning region's center), spawn the units inside the region and instruct them to roam. Giving heroes a challenge after they've played a while is also extremely easy, if you get rid of the belief that heroes have to grow uber as they progress... In my own Neverwinter Nights campaign, I've set the experience gain to zero, so I can actually focus on giving the player challenges rather than giving myself playtest headaches. What needs to be offered to the player is a great variety of strategies, all of which fail in some situation or another, so that the player's always encouraged to try out new things.

Besides, in a decently designed game, challenges would come after a strong enough player rather than waiting for him. By this, I mean anything from simple mobile spawns that hunt the player down to factions hiring assassins. Then again, in a decently designed game, nobody would gain anything more than adrenaline, blood on his shirt and a few dents on his swords for killing someone or something.

Dialogs are abysmally simple, unless you expect the to react to every changing detail... And even so, it's much more versatile than even the stuff Neverwinter Nights has. Just look at Freelancer's random, compound dialogs. They weren't too fluid and varied, but that can be blamed on the designers.

In NWN, I use something called "dialog tokens" to introduce some things like "frowns" or "rustles her brows" or "conceals her eyes' disgusted stare within the shadow of a frown". The actual variant chosen depends on simple variables that range from 1 to 100 (though the actual value isn't calculated - only the sub-range in which it's found). The same thing can be added to WC3 conversations much more easily, unless HK plans to add voice acting (not a very good idea for a project of this size). Relations could range from 1 to 100, with every increment of 20 leading to a new relationship "level". You could have another stat beside the relationship, called "fame", which studies how well-known your name is regardless of your deeds, and another one called "wealth" which counts how much gold belongs to you, what items/mercenaries you have and how many/what businesses you invested in. Investment could mean something simple, like giving the smiths' guild tons of cash so they produce better axes, or giving it to iron mines so the guild has a greater stock and sells at lower prices. Since the three stats would affect countries rather than actual people, you would have...
1) the threshold that determines whether he knows about you at all, and how strongly he reacts to you. If he can't tell where he's seen you before, but subconsciously knows you were the one on the wanted posters, he'll exhibit a mild distain for you (a percentage of his actual reaction, whether positive or negative). (first part of a greeting)
2) a reaction from the king (second part).
3) a comparison of your wealth a month before and now, to see if he says "You've done well for yourself" or just "You look splendid" when he knows you're in debt. This is the third part, and exists only because the king is such an important guy.
You have five relationship levels, but we'll just pick three of them for convenience, and just one threshold of fame (two options for the first part). Since the game only checks whether the wealth has significantly fallen or increased, and considers the relationship level to determine how the king comments on the PC's wealth, there need to be 3x3=9. That's a total of fourteen bits of dialog that probably aren't greater than six words each. The triggers for choosing between them are easy enough for a novice to design, and the remarks themselves would take only a total of three minutes to write, if I was lacking inspiration.

The dialog system would probably have to be menu-based, and provided with a limited but comprising ammount of options for each dialog "knot" - that way, if people know the dialog choices are affecting their stats in even the smallest way, they'll experience more fear and excitement.

Note that many of these opinions might not coincide with HarlequinKnight's. For all I know, he might design a creepfest with a complex story and background.


Actually, most of the current modules don't really bother with it. It seems I'm the only one crazy enough to be writing 9,000 word dialogs. What I should point out is that, rather than allowing the player to express his own ideology, he should be shown the ideologies of others, and allowed to either sustain, ignore or oppose them. In other words, yes/no questions that refer to morally sensitive matters... And use dialogs to point out that they actually are morally sensitive. Most people disregard the immorality of most "heroic" things, like bringing happiness to the land or taking part in tournaments.

Trust me when I say that you should design a new fantasy world. Let me give you an example of just how much an original society or culture can add to gameplay. In my Hemedorim, the northeast of the continent is populated with townsmen and fort-dwellers. While the towns and villages dedicate their manpower and wealth to warlords, the forts' only form of large-scale government is a conclave of wizards that includes one representative from every fort. The legendary Secreters claim faraway caverns or abandoned forts that old wars had emptied of life, using them as temporary bases in which they can safely design plans and scheme. They have no organization, and no wish other than to interfere silently, by acquiring, using and giving away information (including scientific information). So a first bonus to gameplay would be the secreter hero "class", which isn't just powerful in its own way, but also praised in legends...

Fort leaders see to their own establishments, and never enforce any form of domination beyond demanding tribute. When a war takes place, it's generally motivated by simple greed, vengeance or religious reasons. The northerners believe that the spirits of the unborn and the dead roam the land, experiencing an ethereal life, and that written symbols of any sort can attract, repel or bind them. The spirits residing in a man influence how fast he runs, how quickly he thinks and just about everything else. After killing someone with a special, soul-trapping blade and stabbing the corpse in the heart, the blade should either be left there (looking a lot like a cross) or hidden, so that the spirit remains trapped within it for until the iron itself perishes. The whole thing implies that beneficial souls could be placed in one's weapons or armor (consider a ritual on corpses), carried on banners, directed towards the enemy, used for finding a way through unknown territory or even sent into mechanical objects to improve their efficiency. Some of these actions might have negative reputation consequences - for instance, it's considered a crime worse than murder to destroy a spirit. How many real-world or fantasy locations, to your knowledge, have such things as secreters and a belief that spirits not only fly across the world, but are also present in every form of energy and follow soldiers into war? Not many, yet the two principles, and the warrior culture they're based on, are easier to integrate than the typical middle-age kingdom's theology and thieves' guild (not to mention the fact that forts make a better starting point for adventures than cities). After all, what's more interesting... Striking an enemy with the power of the light, or sending three generations of your family into his corpse?

I also know that the Dragonlance map, Mythic Europe and Toril aren't tailored for a game like Warcraft 3, so it might be more effective to design a campaign world of your own, which considers the nature, limitations and qualities of the WC3 engine. Not only that, but they've all been overused (though this might be an advantage if you want to attract the clichee-seeking hordes) and would strain the interest of terrainers. After all, what's fun about copying from a map? And I might be in the minority be asking this, but what's fun about taking heaps of information from a world and adding in a droplet to create a new unit or hero?

If you do decide to make it original... The players who might feel out of place will have the option of starting out in traditional non-fantasy settings, like a romanticized version of medieval western Europe, those interested in obscure history could play a citizen of a land modelled on ancient India, while hardcore fantasy addicts could join the game within entirely new cultures. To summarize, have one or two "gateway" kingdoms, which resemble typical fantasy lands, an educational setting and a couple of original ones.

post mortem #4: Hey, what do you know... I now possess the biggest post in the entire history of wc3campaigns, and I've only been snooping around for a few weeks! Yay to me!