Camaign to start development - Epic!

hi all

Blasted be you Anvilsmith :/ ... your post has 1800+ words while mine has 1300+ words -_- ...

But yeah, i'm not gonna try to strike that record though at this time, i'm rather just gonna reply here. And i'm surprised anyone read my whole post :P, but then again, i read all your post anvil :P so i must be a champion too.

Reply to DarkDragon

:) heh, with most of what you said i couldn't agree more with :P
Most people/project should try to hang on without getting "new" models :/ as it's simply too hard to get it, and the warcraft model-library is pretty big, big enough for most....So what that your main hero looks like 3000 other main-hero's-of-other-games (arthas). The thing that you "can" do to make it look original...is possible through skinning, if you're a good drawer, you can really do great stuff too the bland model-collection :P. But yeah, you must agree that most people that are "proffesional" (i find this word soo superficial) and are already in a project (99% of them likely) aren't always "searching for job" here? i mean, i doubt you replied to this thread to sign up, did you? :), so guys can check out this forum to see what's going on and such, but not really to search for a job.

Agree with you on second paragraph :)

About balancing creature strength, it's indeed possible, as i have done so myself...but it's not as easy as anvilsmith makes it sound. For single player it may be easier than for multiplayer as i did it, but you still have to take alot of factors into consideration, and overall, these are alot of globals/triggers you need to work with, atleast for multiple map.

And your thought of Creature spawning would not work very well, as this (along with the creature strength) is the hardest thing for balancing. And both of it may be easy to program, and easy to implement, but there are tons of values/numbers you have to tweak to keep it balanced.

But yeah, you can't just summon creatures in a spider-nest, you have to keep track of them, or else they'll soon fill the map, and also, just the "wander/patrol" order is bad, it's not that easy to make a creep wander to good places, i mean ... heh, you don't just take a random-spot in a region, you'll have to have waypoints or sumtin, and it's pretty tedious.

What i ment is that he should try to "detail" the gameplay-mechanism, not the story, he needs to detail exactly how he's gonna do everything he wants to, he needs to decide what kind of spawning system he wants to do, what kind of dialog system he wants to do, and all stuff like this. And he has to do it with the wc3 engine in mind.

And anvilsmith, even though some of those methods you're presenting are good, they still have some cons. F.ex. even though implementing a dynamic-world thingy is easy, it's still major tedious as he still has to manually create tons of stuff at start, depending on cache'd numbers. And keeping track of everything is hard.

And about difficulty, i guess you are one of the people who love the D&D rules and games made on it, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who don't...mainly, who prefer getting JRPG's (japanese RPG's) for their char-development (getting crazy powerful) instead of the DnD where you gain 1-6 hp + a feat per level, depending on class :/. Ofcourse i know that this is way more "realistic", but people often don't want realism in their game, they want fantasy, they like to be super-powerful after a few kills...and generally, most people who play wc3, are now used to the Diablo style of getting a more powerful-skill at each levelup and some more power instantly, and therefore getting incredible powers. And if a mod is a RPG, but does not give them this, it needs to be able to give them something else in return. And i really think that Harlequin is going for the typical WC3 style hero-power-style. So a dynamic difficulty system is definetely needed.

Unit spawning, though a good idea, is not that simple. Mainly the "roam" part... But yeah, you're close to it, but yeah, it's still not that easy, as after this comes the balancing part...but ofcourse you already have a strategy about that part.

And to keep it short....While doing a dialog-system is easy...the ammount of dialogs needed, and the number of conditions needed are abissmal.

anyways, this got longer than i expected, so i'm just gonna close now.

Cubasis

I was wondering why I hadn't done anything the whole day... Been writing a post for two hours. Drat. It seems I'll be going strangely quiet in the next few days, so feel free to barricade the forum with long posts in my absence.

First, I'm going to give a suggestion to everyone who wants new models for their campaign. Unless these new models are vital to the campaign (say, the entire story hinges on whether or not the hero has three skulls on his shoulder), make sure that you can always use one of the WC3 models as a surrogate. For instance, in the Garithos campaign, I've introduced a rather unique character - a dwarven woman. Should I fail to get a modeller's attention, I'll just redo her anatomy and use a mountain king's body instead. Inconvenient, but much better than hoping for a modeller.

That paragraph made me remember... HK said he'd go for a diablo-style item system, so he might borrow the combat system as well. I won't make any assumptions, though.

I'm surprised you mentioned D&D, because I prefer freeform RPGs and MUDs (the 1800+ word post should have made it obvious). I also had no clue that the japanese were designing RPGs, though I *have* played a lot of their strategy games and economic sims. Not that any of them could beat NetHack, not even Princess Maker 2. And yeah, it would be hard to balance creeps, especially if you want to give an appropriate challenge rather than an appropriate level... But just buffing their stats to obscene levels shouldn't take too much work.

I should mention that roguelikes, such as Nethack, Zangband and Ragnarok, have a lot more worth borrowing from than Diablo - the fact that you can wipe out entire races or turn into a fire giant by reading a scroll of wonder is enough to make the hearts of even die-hard powergamers shiver. If only the ideas in these games were compatible with the WC3 engine...

Hah!! :O

lol :) funny, never saw a person who didn't know of a signle japenese RPG :P, well, i do think you have atleast heard of some of them, but not known they were japenese :P.

But yeah...To make it clear, but you still likely know most of this already. Nintendo, Sega, Sony, SquereSoft and Enix (now together as SquereEnix) amongst ALOT of other companies...Are all japenese.

That means that all the RPG's that squeresoft/enix has made are JRPG (a acronym that is not widely used). Which means that most often JRPG = Console RPG's ... that's the usual thing, most JRPG games are on consoles, and most console RPG games are in teh JRPG "style" (believe me, this can be thought of as a RPG style as most of them are very similar in game structure).

But now to list all the "JRPG" games you "should" atleast reccognize, Amongst others:

Final Fantasy 1-3 on Nintendo.
Final Fantasy 4-6 on Super Nintendo.
Final Fantasy 7-9 on PlayStation.
Final Fantasy 10 (and soon 10-II (lol, sequel)) on PS2.

DragonQuest/Warrior (though not widely popular here in europe/USA, but is more popular than ...blah in japan).

Chrono Trigger on Super Nintendo.
Chrono Chross on Playstation.

Secret Of Mana on Super Nintendo.

Tales Of ##### on many consoles.

and i could count on about many less-known RPG's, but commonly, the FF games are the most known/popular and for a good reason, and if you have never tried any "JRPG" game, and would wish too, then i reccomend you to (atleast if you don't have a phobia against 16-bit Super Nintendo graphics) get Final Fantasy 6 (commonly known as FF3) rom, and a emulator, and try it out, it's just a experience you should know about.

Anyways, the general gameplay structure on the JRPG's are pretty much "linear" but HEAVILY story-focused, meaning you are a part of a amazingly epic story (at least in most of the FF games) and is sometimes similar to a movie where you do play and fight and experience the story, but it is the story that drags you along, very linear'ly. I however like this, as i love the deep envolving story, and i don't have anything against "linear" gameplay, atleast if the story is good enough.

You get given characters as a part of the story, so you have a main char, and then you gain others as a part of the story. The battles are almost always turn-based (or a heavily modified TurnBased system (f.ex. Active Turn Based), still, don't get turned down by "turn-based" as they really do it well and it's pretty much action in it). The FF games are also popular for never being even similar to each other. There is always a completely different game-world in each game, (thus there newer was a "real" sequel until the up-comming "FF; X-II") and different characters, and different spell-system, and different story... Thus, the way you gain more power is heavily different in each game, but generally you start out with 200 hp dealing 50 damage or whatever, and then at the end you have around 4000-9999 hp and are dealing the same ammount of damage with your super-powerful elemental-powered sword and the general JRPG spells (ultima, meteor and the crazy summons).

Anyways, you very possibly know all this as you likely have tried/seen FF but just not known it was Japenese, but yeah, RPG's (my opinion) get filtered down into these 2 groups ... JRPG-type of linear story-heavy console game. And the other type of non-linear D&D (most often) (most often with a giant "world" that you can openly walk around doing whatever you want) PC game. (not taking MMORPG games that is). I generally like JRPG games more, but this is really 50/50 thing, as there are giant numbers of people liking the different things.

But anyways, if you don't even know the word FF, then by all means try out FF6 for the snes, many people think of it as the greatest in the series (ofcourse heavily arguable, as it's still just 16-bit, and the whole series took a giant twist/turn when they upped to 3d in the psx era.). But it has some great story and some fun gameplay, and is a generally good impression of the series.

Cubasis

Heh, you musn't forget the cult-classic, final fantasy 7, in which the story was equally powerful (and palyable on the computer without an emulator).

Not only were some of the effects practically mind-boggling at the time (they still look rather cool), the story was worthy o the ff franchise, bringing a lot of the classic feel back into the series, succesfully, to 3d for the first time.

About the rpg, I planned, since it IS the wc3 engine, to use a more "real-time" fighting system, so not too many triggers will be needed in this aspect. It also improves the feel od being able to do anything, anywhere, including atacking whatever you plz. This could come with downfalls, but I'm sure the option to cut down a tree with about 100 swings from your weapon might be outrageous, but still realistic.

I hope you all agree with me about the decision to wait until jan, since it also allows me more time to REALLY think some of it over.

I've been giving the character system some thought, and decided to go "less" complicated, though it still offers a lot of... options.
Through a series of questions, the player is given a class, based on the decisions. 27 heroes will be available, along with 3 hidden heroes. Plus, throughout the world, certain characters will be available to join your party, should you treat them right, do their quests, help them, save them, etc.
I decided to go simple, and use three asnwers per question, an answer each representing the simplified attributes of the wc3 engine: strength, agility, and intelligence.
You will be asked a very simple question. Depending on the answer given, it willl choose str, int, or agi. The next question hones your hero further, choosing str int or agi again. once more, and you will have chosen your hero. It seems rather simple, but the options you can take are wise and varied, each leading to a unique experience. I might even have to "skip" a set of questions. If I did this, then perhaps I could have a unique experience per hero, like how npc's react to him, and what quests he would take.
Then comes the question of "morality". This actually triples the amount of work, in the sense that good, evil,and neatral would be incorporated throughout the game.

Which leaves me with 2 options: Use the 30 heroes, bringing a fanastic amount of palyability to the game. OR (the beter option), cut it down to 9 hereos, but have each one take a different path, able to choose thier diety, affecting gameplay, along with their morality, which could shift during gameplay with their choices.

Either way, it brings a lot more complexity to the board. With 9 nations, each character reflects a seperate set of rules, religion, culture, and mind-set. Exploring each of these, I would imagine, could be a very nice treat. Even if the gamepaly was sub-linear, it would offer a very gratifying gaming experience.

Which brings up the sunject of how the story would be approached. I feel that it should be as open as possible, bringing options as to how you complete your tasks, but never losing sight of the story. Many gaems take the open-ended feel way too far, and end up losing the interest of the gamer, who is sick of running around, and trying to remember, or find, the next "story point". I think that it should all direct you to that point, but offer different ways to reach it. Objectives will be clear cut, with the story always present. I've also decided that, instead of allowign the customization of yor character, like I wanted (similar to nwn), I will have the palyer control a character from the gaem, and focus instead on growing a relationshiop with that character.

So far you have a deep story, an ambitious approach to the rpg style, an open-ended way to do things, a complex weapon system, many different paths to play, each with unique characters and stories, and a very low "learning curve", through the fact that you will be guided through the first part of the game, and offered more freedom as you progress.

I have gotten news that I will be allowed a place in a rather amature site, but will be a featured product. They are suffering from lack of participation, and would appreciate a project to host. I am going to try and get the project into the place, and just put up the concept, story, and background, to get people interested. When January comes, I will focus more deeply on making the project more involved, opening idea forums, and start a hiring gig.

Please feel free to comment on anything now, including ideas you would like to see in the game. This will serve as an area where people can "kinda" request things that will make this game great.

UNDERSTAND, I am not able to moderate this thread, so plz leep it short and to the point, make sure you only post once your ideas (or questions directed to me), and that all ideas may not be used, depending on how they affect gameplay.
*note* I am not looking for in-game ideas such as quests, chars, items, or lands. I am looking for what the people want to see in an RPG, whether it be open-ended gameplay, a more complex character relationship, or lotsa mini-games! It's up to you on how this shapes up. Do you like games that allow you a party of chars? Prefer to have the option to set spells? I need to know. After the ideas are down, or requested, I will then look to incorporate them into gamepaly if possible, so that it can truly raise the bar when it comes to the wc3 engine.

p.s. I wonder why you can't help out when the time comes, cubasis, since you AND anvilsmith seem to have a grasp on what I am attempting, not to mention your own views as to seeing it come to life. For now, let me get all my story, concepts, and ideas in order, and come January, look to this forum for any news, ok?

p.p.s. I will post here to the exact site I am putting up the project.

lol, hi again harlequinknight :P

The reason why i reccomended ff6, is that it's much easier to get without paying and/or searching all around the internet for a 1800 meg game :P. But it's true, ff7 totally rocks and is incredibly involving, But FF6 is likely the best one to present someone into the series, as both it's small and easy to get... and the fact that if he likes it, he won't get instantly spoiled to the sweet 3d graphics, and then has a chance at playing the other even older FF games that are good, but many people don't play as they turn away from the 8-16 bit graphics :P. But ya, FF6 is also a great game on it's own and is by many considered the best :).

Anyhow :P. I'm happy to see that you have started thinking more about the gameplay-related ideas instead of the world/story (not saying story isn't important). And that is great, as you as a leader has "first" too do all the decisions...based on wc3's capabilities. So you have to decide on all the different methods, and that Q-system sounds mighty good i must tell.

All of this sounds pretty nice and i must admit that you should delay it till jan...but you should not just do nothing till then but detail the story or sumtin...it's then a very good idea to just play around with the warcraft engine on your own, try to take a part of the thing you have thought about for this rpg...and try to program it on a simple testmap, that way you get more feel for the triggering, plus you learn more of the limits and stuff and you'll just learn alot.

About thoughts about what you can do :P well, i might have a few, but i'm tired to write them tonight :P

And sadly, i'm way busy myself to assist on this :) hehe, just check the site in my signature and check our hosted-project-forums for details...basicly, creating "2" hosted RPG's.

anyhow
Cubasis

People take me too seriously... When I said "strategy games and economic sims", I meant JRPGs, because that's what they really are. I played a few good ones, like Live-a-Live and Bahamut Lagoon (and Koei's New Horizons, if that counts), but for some reason, I just felt the story of ff6 (or was it ff3? It's listed as 3/6 wherever I look for it...) was too plain - it was just another mysterious hero being used by evil emperor for his power. Bah. Secret of Mana 3 was exciting, though I could've just as well played Golden Axe 2 on genesis. Front mission, while more on the strategy side, would've been enjoyable if it provided an infinite credits cheat... The story seemed interesting, at least, even though it had its unrealistic parts you could guess what sides the stereotypical characters were on. Lufia 2 was just a puzzle/combat game, and final fantasy 1 couldn't even beat the american Yendor. As far as I'm concerned, Chrono trigger is pretty much final fantasy 6.5. Those were the only RPGs I remember... Some, like 7th Saga 2, just didn't seem to work with either zNES or SNES9x (or something like that), and a few others were just too embarassing to mention.

I used "Princess Maker 2" as an example because it was the most ridiculous JRPG invented - I was abusing a 12-year-old girl by throwing her into an arena, where she got slashed and bruised, and at the end of it, she was still cheering because her daddy would be so proud. Damn proud, especially of the 900 intelligence I gave her... I sent her out to kill things for tutoring funds when she was fourteen, and she happily chopped away at the various monsters. Ick, I say.

So I'm quite experienced in JRPGs... Sorry for wasting your post. I'm definitely going to replay live-a-live, though, especially because I never tried anything besides the chinese and robotic quests. If you could PM me a link to a translated part of the Fire Emblem series, Star Ocean or an obscure JRPG that actually has some flake of wisdom in it, I'd be more than grateful.



Which is great, because it means I can focus on my NWN campaign and another, less ambitious WC3 RPG project I'm working on. I suspect Garithos will stride into the downloads section near the end of December, which will leave me half-free to work on your campaign.

I saw you mention morality as good, evil and neutral, then thought... Oh god, no. I honestly hope you're not introducing an alignment system, because it would presume a great deal. If you want to establish different ideologies based on the various cultures, you should rather base the PC's answers to the morality question(s) on the currents of thought found in his kingdom. Just as the WC3 orcs would have a "bloodlust" answer, an "honor" answer and whatever else is appropriate for the culture, and the question itself would involve some battle or another, so would a citizen have a question regarding some important, controversial element of his kingdom's culture. If you don't care about cultures, try to give a list of answers that doesn't make either of them seem the "evil" one, but make each of them suggest one way of approaching a problem... Remember the questions from the Elders Scrolls and Ultima series - none of them made you good or evil, though they did reveal what virtues/attitude your character possessed. In fact, I bet that if you make the entire main story like this (morally fragile in appearance), players are going to think carefully about their decisions and enjoy a quality RPG without the non-linear dialogs that NWN allows. You might also want to do something else - ask the for a generic purpose (like "wealth", "fame", "knowledge" or "strength"), and his preferred way to go past obstacles (direct confrontation, subterfuge or analysis). Even if the player picks analysis, he'll still see plenty of action, but might be presented with new ways to progress through the main story. I recall Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis had something like this, where you could choose an action path, a thought path and a teamwork path.

I am, of course, presuming that you want the PC to have some nuance of a character, rather than just going about his paladinish ways killing chickens and being a badass (this is actually what some NWN brats do on persistent worlds that lack an application process).

There's one little idea I have, about the learning curve... Instead of being shown through a combat tutorial, you might want to give the kingdoms "arenas" or dojos of some sort, where the player can be given tips related to how the hero's custom abilities are best used. Say, he fights a master, and is given one tip after the fight if he loses it. It would be very hard to have the tip based on the actual fight, as you'd have to be calculating what abilities were used, then write a different for each ability the AI combatant was experienced in, but even a simpler version could go well. If you choose this, you'd probably want to make a mandatory "first fight" by giving the player a "friend" (which I recommend for the rest of the tutorial) who fights professionally and wants to spar with the PC for fun.

The "please post here" notice at the end of eight mammoth posts and their entourage probably isn't a good idea... You'd better put all of that in the first post, and slap a big bold EDIT or UPDATE on top of it, to let people know that you're looking for feedback. Actually, you might want to start a whole new thread for this, since a lot of those sub-professionals who felt they couldn't join will have a chance to read it.

I'll see you in January... Happy hibernating.

hah hah hah :P

Funny :P

I see that you have played some JRPGS :)

Although i still wonder if you've really played FF6, or if you just scratched the first 5 minutes (as the first 5 minutes indicate a hero's power being used by the empire :P) ... and even more... i wonder if you've ever even played something more than 5 mins of chrono trigger...which i doubt, as you hurt alot of people unintentionally by calling it final fantasy 6.5 :P

It's by many thought the greatest game ever, and that nothing can stand up to it, but anyhow. FF6 is still a pretty great game, it has in the end 16 (?) characters who are all pretty detailed and dramatic. Each of them has a pretty interesting side-quest, and you learn to like them, and it's pretty cool. But i don't think you'll ever get into it, as it seems that the only JRPG games you do love are the few little non-linear ones :).

Anyways, if you ever get a chance to play FF7 (a 3 cd PSX, hah) you might like it, it has very dramatic story and some nice graphics as harlequin told (don't get fooled by the super-blocky adventure-screen models). And the FMV's squere decided to go with are still used in all of their games and make the game the more dramatic (and believe me, in this story, they sure have use for these cines :P)

Anyhow, i guess you'll never be able to check out the newer FF's, atleast if you didn't really like FF6. But i still wonder if you really did play FF6 and Chrono Trigger :P (to the end that is). But yeah, CT has a very special story and is completely different than most other rpg's

Cubasis

Hey Cubasis..... Would I be able to get my project into that site? It looks like you are pretty prominent in there, and I couldn't imagine a better place. Lemme know.

I am sorry of the sudden revive but I really want to see this project finish...

anyway, HarlequinKnight did you found a place to host it? If you do, tell us here :D

Bah!

I still haven't found anyone that can help me with this dillema! :bgrun:

I am going to try this site again, and I want to know if I can put your names down as "Idea/Staff" to hopefully garner some more support. After all, you all have great ideas, comments, and an over-all feel for what I am trying to do here.
Cubasis, I can see that you already have a team thats working in here, so if you had any ideas on who to contact, or what I should have, please let me know.

I was hoping to get the area settled, and get a forum up for feedback, and story. Gamepaly elements would be discussed loosely until January, or later, until I feel that it is entirely thought out. This will also help me get a place for people to come to, and get a more secure area to get people "hired".
Plus, people would be able to view the progress and ideas of the game more freely, instead of scrolling through this thread!

Again, should I still not have a host in a short time, I'll jsut try and get it started, and try back at a later date. I deeply appreciate all the support you have given this already, even in this small thread (not so small anymore!), and hope to see you in the forum, when it does come to life.

Keeping his fingers crossed - Harlequin :////



p.s. Does anyone know any other siters like this one? I doubt if there are, that they would provide such a nice environment, but I still have to try.... :(

Sure, put me on staff... But rather than wait for a forum, why not make a few threads here? Counterstrike at Quel'thalas has one, and it's quite a popular campaign, as I understand. If you do make an official thread, it'll be pretty active and placed on a densely scrutinized forum rather than midway within a heap of campaigns that very few bother to seriously look at. You'll get people interested, and the mods would see that you really have a detailed game concept and story, as opposed to a bold promise. If you choose to post multiple threads, all you have to do is make sure they're kept active without needing bumps (so a feedback thread probably shouldn't be made until the mod becomes really popular, or until it finally gets hosted).

Wow, I guess you are right....
I am now going to just try and remain with WC3C, and try and get it hosted here. Not only is this the environment I want it to be in, I feel that I will get the most feedback and support from this site. I currently have something going on right now (it'll last a week), but other than that, I have been doing some more work on the background, and layout of the world. Also, I have been experimenting with different character types, as well as weapon types.
Since you guys have a pretty good (great) grasp on rpgs in particular, would you rather have one massive quest, with the option of a ton of unique classes, perhaps even being able to get more than one class (including race, proficiancies, etc.), or 9 seperate fairly large quests, each with it's own unique hero, and each affecting the story in a different way. This would allow the player to not only get different sides to the game, but it would allow more re-playability....
Either way, there is *definitly* going to be a ton of weapons, hopefully represented in real-time, tons of items and armor (armor would be a little too hard, even for this project, me thinks...), a huge land, a whole ****-load of quests, an engrossing story, a deep background....

I'm just not sure on a few more things, but I'll continue to look around...
Please feel free to contribute any ideas for gameplay (along with different aspects of gameplay.) For instance, should we have the traditional warcraft view (farily isometric overhead view), a third person view (the camera follows a little more closely, from the back of the hero...this would use a camera control system to allow the palyer to rotate the camera, i think)...
Item system. I already know that the more items incorporated throughout the game will give it a more natural feel, and even make it more exciting, knowing that there are practically limitless amounts of things to find. But, making limitless items, although not too hard, would require careful planning. Balancing, level requirement, abilities, types of items, and even what is considered as items, and whats considered as "armor" or "wepons" is brought into account.
I've started thinking that, perhaps through re-skinning that item layout, I could create an effective wayt to have slots for inventory items. Simple triggers (for this part of the game anyways), would allow the item to be "assigned" a place in the inventory. For instance, I thougt the top 2 slots could be used for weapons/sheilds. If the class is unable to use 2 weapons at once (perfectly understandable), he would be restricted to 1 weapon "equipped" at a time. Otherwise it would be put in the inventory, or left on the ground. On the otherhand, if a warrior class were to use 2 weapons at once, and decide to equip a shield, he would be able to. (easy enough)
Items would be incorporated through a very random system, I'm pretty sure. Anything from good-luck charms to hoyl relics could be used here, making it very.... erratic as to how I'm going to do this. Should I have a holy relic be something very important, only allowing you to carry one, but overly affecting your character? Or jsut have the other 4 slots devoted to regular items, all varying in importance and usage?
Armor... This is a very important part of RPG's, usually being a key part as to your status, in a sense, and to your survival. It is actually *more varied than weapons, in the sense that armor can be divide into many seperate groups in and of itself. For instance, the upper half of the player itself can be divided into seperate parts of armor: gloves, bracers/bracelets, torso armor, necklaces, headgear, belts, cloaks.... Thats a lot to take in.
Obviously, if I were truly insane, I could try and pull a truly expert team together and make a skeleton-type model, to base off of, and make different armors, weapons, and clothes, feaures, and races, similar to nwn's character creation system (and armor system).It's just not plausible in the realm of wc3. Therefore, looking into more simpler times, the classes were almost already set on armo and their outfits depending on what class they were, only differing in weapon, or weapon power. Another example, the final fantasy series. Technically, the older series focused on a class(job) system that allowed you to level a particular "job", but change whenver you wanted to. While in that class, the more you used it, the more knowledge you would have of that class, unlocking better skills and better abilities and attacks... as that class. So if you were a black mage from the start, by the end yoyu would be truly powerful as a black mage, *But, you could use that knowledge to carry over into another class. So if he went obver to a Knight class, he could still cast black magics, to an extent. But being the black mage stil had bonuses, like a ton of mana, special magic abilities while casting, access to certain spells only available while that class, etc. In other words, being a class has it's upsides, but you can also learn skills to carry on into other classes, making the learning of classes invaluable, same as the leveling up of classes is invaluable. For example, you could fight one battle once as each class, and gt their basic ability. But, you would then be rather weak over-all, not progressing in either health or mana, skills or abilities. I'm still wondering how much of this to incorporate into the game, as an exact copy would seem stupid...
Classes will also benefit from different items and weapons. A ninja, obviously, would use a katana better than a barbarian. On the other hand, a barbarian would use a battle-axe much easier than a ninja. Sure, you "could" use them (sometimes, not even then), but it would be foolish, resulting in foolishness (most liekly a lame attack lol).
These "weapon classes" should hopefully bring yet another aspect to consider when palying, and since dropping that katana could be a mistake, should you ever want to be a samurai class. The inventory will be located at certain spots, and you can also "create" or "loan" out inventories in the form of inns or boxes. In realism's sake, you would have to remember where you left the items, or even where you left the boxes and inns, but that is reality.
I'm guessing that, as a compromise, I'll do the same with the weapons and class systems. Being able to choose a class, each having it's own skills to learn, along with it's abilities *only available while that class*. This makes changing classes a strategy in it's own right, knowing when to risk being weak and learn new skills. Changing too late in the game would result in a vry "narrow" character, only able to use theat class's skills. Being too many classes will not allow you to be powerful enough to face anything, really. Switching back to the class will only be available when you level up. Therefore, you must risk being that class untill the next time you switch. (similar to nwn (dnd)).
Weapons will follow suit, being available, depending on the palyer's level and the strength of the item, to be used effectively or not used at all. A godly artifact would not be used by a level 1 character, nor would it be found by one. Classes would have "favored" weapons, along with the ability to make different weapons favorable. Of course, different classes would have restrictions, like a mage. He would not be able to use a long sword, unless at a very high level, and by learning a lot of other skills (most likely another class's). A Knight would have access to a lot more weapons, but relatively low magic abilities (unless he switched from a mage, and was a high level... turning into a battle-mage of sorts).
Since I'm still on the topic of Classes, I thougt I should tell you the 9 classes I had in mind, should I have the 9 heroes that each have seperate paths. Unlike the other character selection system, you will be able to select them from the start, even hearing their current situation, and background (if you've ever played saga frontier, you'll know what I mean by selecting a hero to progress his story).
The 9 characters: Knight(warrior), Barbarian, Ranger, Dragoon, Paladin, Warlock, Samurai, Corsair, Ninja, Assassin, Bard, Shaman, Cleric, Necro, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, Mage.
I know they are rather generic, but each will actually be a main character in the story (probably seing them, even from different campaigns). Example, if you were playing the corsair (rather detached from the kingdom's battles), you would be more intersted in your own affairs. Although, should you get caught up in it, you would probably see the Knight character leading his men to battle. Knowing that you could control any of these campaigns holds a distinct feel of bing part of a bigger world.
As for the other idea, there would be a series of questions (based on morals, random questions, and attribute questions) deciding your hero/class. There would be at elast tripled the amount of hereos listed here, bringing a more "chance" or "random" feel into the game. You *could paly through twice, just to play the different characters, alhtough that would probably only be fanatics (depending on how much you seperate the classes in the world, or how the world reacts to the different classes). This, on the other hand, makes the campaign a single campaign, not 9 full campaigns, probably meaning more concentration on a single purpose, not divided. Should tyhr palyer get the option to choose his kingdom, moving around the map as he pleases, or get a presetkingdom, along with his character, but providing a deeper involving to that kingdom. I'm almost certain we can't mix the two, as the free-roaming aspect almost elimanates the sense of *country duty* that one might feel in the other idea. Perhaps we could jsut focus on the sense of making each kingdom as deep as possible, so if they should want to delve into it's politics, they *could*. I think it's that exact aspect that will really seperate this from most RPG's anywhere, along with the world to explore at your will. That deepness, coupled with the free-roaming makes it seem more a realistic world. Like I said before, the ability to do almost anything you wanted is going to *try* and be done...

I have also, should time allow, going to try and make a miniature, like some of you said. Only thing is, even a miniature would be very time consuming on my own, especialyl with the busy holidays coming up. I am, I admit, a little lacking on the triggering side, and I will probably not get very far. This only stresses more the reason why I need a team. The only reason I posted *professional* is that I'm not sure anything less would be capable of doing much. I can terrain, and I probably will, along with skin. For now, I will jsut re-skin, and focus on gameplay and story. Later, should it really shape up in those departments, I could focus on getting some more artists to model important characters, skin units, make custom icons, redo the interface, etc.
Since it is so large, I imagine that development would be rather laid back, working slowly but steadily. It will not happen over night (lol, thats almost too funny, even as an epigram...), much less, a month, but I think it would be worth persuing. The project of the year! Just imagine, should it actually get released, it would be a whole new game, all by itself. It could literally surpass anyones thoughts of how warcraft could be played, and not even be thoguht of warcraft anymore, moving on to take it's own name...

I will bide my time, fine tuning everything I can in the concept phase, until spring. I will occasionaly ask things like the question above, on certain aspects, but other than that, I will create the thing on paper, so we can just put it on screen, instead of debating how to get it there (like most mods).
Well, I'm going to warn you right now, but the next 10 or so paragraphs are taken by the kigdoms and a breif explanation of their lands/gods. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE feel free to note anything you see wrong, or things that could be better. I can only feel that some of it is done hastily, but since it's rather vague anyways, it's not too important.
I should have probably started a whole other post for this alone, but I guess I got caught up in the record for making the longest post (lol).

Here 'Tis! -Harlequin



*Basic Story*:

The Numina Chronicles:

The epic chapter in history in which the Gods are reborn, alliances made and broken, nations rise and fall, and the Earth is changed forever…


Story:
After the God Wars, humankind fell into a dark age, in which almost all technology was lost. Religion was banned, unless it was used to preserve humanity. Falling back on the weapons of the past, mankind fell into bitter rivalries, quarreling endlessly over the little land they had. Amidst all of the fighting, three kingdoms fell together, claiming to bring their gods, along with healing, wealth, and prosperity, to their respective kingdoms. These three rulers had larger plots of land than most, consorting with treachery to claim what could not be theirs openly. Preying on the smaller contingents, the kingdoms soon expanded, bringing with them wealth, prosperity, but not peace. With no kingdom led by a just and kind ruler, certain heroes watched it in disgust (or eagerness). He knew that the gods were there, but that even they were not wholly united. Each kingdom respected every one of the gods, yet each ruler secretly worshipped his own, pledging their very souls to them for power, wealth, and above all, the other kingdoms.

Thats a *REALLY* basic idea, and its not really even a story. I want the story to fit together really well, so I'm going to take the time and prepare it properly. Talk to you in spring! (or whenever I need some advice).... :foot:

p.s. I will probably jsut revive this thread, and use it as my "head-qaurters" away from head-quarters, Aight? :ggani:

I find it amazing that you have all this discussion.. and no actual action going on. Can you really not do ANYthing until you get hosted? That seems a little insane. I'm curious, Harle, is Skinning the only real skill you have?

Items and weapons: don't confuse the two concepts. If you keep a lot of books that actually give hints to certain locations, like in the second and third Ultima trilogies, you're going to make this game much more special than the hordes of Diablo clones out there. Furthermore, if you provide things like tools and mini-games to play with them (see below) you'll have the problem of stashing all these things inside a six-slot inventory. I know that Warcraft 3 offers a very limited inventory structure, so let's figure out ways of creating space before providing a large list of items to fill it. One way would involve an "inventory" menu ability: you select it, and get a list of inventory items you possess: backpack, bags, quiver etc. You may, of course, upgrade these items for extra space and a slower decay rate (provided you implement one). Upon selecting it, the item appears as a static object on the ground near you, and you may transfer items to it as you wish. You can also use a text-driven interface, but I would personally find that awkward. Also, certain types of armor could act as containers by having pockets, which makes the choice of upgrading your armor a bit more serious.

The whole idea of item proficiencies, along with that of rigid classes (which you may group inside a single character, but they're still rigid) is archaic and unsuitable for a freeform RPG. Instead, use circle arcs for your abilities: suppose there are a total of one hundred abilities in general... Have it so all of the classes can select twenty-five of these, twenty-five more are accessible for most classes, and another twenty-five each belong to a select group (so you'll probably have no more than four of these no matter which class you choose). If you have twelve classes, two of the final twenty-five go to each class, as their unique abilities. This means that about 40 abilities are available to every class, out of the 100 present, but that they still retain their individuality. The whole idea here is to make class selection a style-based rather than statistics-based choice, as even if you screw up and don't get the abilities you wanted at first, you'll still have the flexibility to bounce back into action. Or, you can just go for a skill-based system that encourages like skills to develop (so if you train black mage skills, your "ranking" as a black mage will go up and boost all skills in this category). I actually like this idea, as it doesn't force you to consume skillpoints just so you can "try out" a skill (then again, we could have arenas for that - places that temprorarily boost some skills just so you can test them at their respective levels).

Same for weapons... Suppose that spears give the trip tactic (see below) a greater chance of success and boost the effectiveness the lunge fighting style, instead of having their attack increased by a "spear" skill. If you do this, people will go for items that support the skills they want to use, rather than hoping that their skills are good for the items they find. If four types of weapons support a skill, you have a lot of ways to express that skill, and don't fear it's being wasted. If a skill supports a single kind of weapon, you're placing the utility of half the items you find in danger just so you can use a few of them more effectively. Remember that you upgrade skills by choice, whereas luck alone determines what items you find. As an amateur game designer, I'd rather reward the player's choices than his luck.

If there are really going to be tons of skills, you might as well make them all menu-based. However, rather than having four-six piles of active skills that require mana, consider these passive skill categories: combat tactics, fighting styles, casting styles and crafting techniques. When you pick your combat tactic, you're actually saying what you want to achieve with each attack - maim the target, stun him, cause more hp damage, cause bleeding damage etc., while the fighting style you choose boosts certain stats and weakens others, so a dodge fighting style will make you harder to hit and decrease your weapon damage. Casting styles work the same way, boosting certain qualities of your spells and weakening others. I expect there to be a generic style for both casting and fighting, which slightly improves each of your characteristics, so if the player doesn't want to complicate himself, he goes with this style through the whole game. Note that these skills should somehow grow together, since the system would otherwise encourage picking a single style and sticking to it. Either that, or the game itself could encourage having a variety of styles available.

Also, I recommend (perhaps vainly) that you take a bold step and hide the attack bonuses completely. Instead of writing +10, you describe a blade as "keen" or "pretty sharp". People are much more likely to "fall in love" with their items if they don't act as accountants - I did that in Ultima 8, where I kept Flame Tongue well after I could have gotten the Sword of Striking because of the cool flame effect. You want the players to feel badass when they hold an almighty sword, but there's no sense in showing the numbers when you can just douse its attack in special effects.

My final idea involves the use of mini-games... Consider standard battle one of these mini-games, and you'll understand what I'm truly talking about. Let's say that you allow a crafting skill... As you know, most RPG crafting systems in existence consist of tedious or quick activities focused on improving one's combat abilities. They aren't exciting because they aren't meant to be - no game designer has yet devoted a single thought to making a blacksmith's tasks attractive, even though they can entertain the player for hours if properly designed. First of all, let's look at what combat presumes... In general, you're not waiting for your opponent to arrive and beat you up, but are actively searching for it. The scenery also changes: you get to explore new locations by beating the monsters that guard them. It's not combat that makes a violent playing style interesting - stick someone in a cramped arena with no item or level gain bonuses and he'll admit that. In fact, you can easily design a blacksmithing mini-game to be as exciting as the combat mini-game if you provide a variety of ways to approach your obstacles, a good dose of exploration and some feeling of advancement. Let's suppose, then, that every blacksmithing task is a problem and must be faced with a strategic mindset, one that even surpasses WC3's in complexity, as you're not just going for a singular victory, but trying to get a good balance of item stats. Let's also suppose that you develop iron items by working at a blacksmith's guild or by using a wilderness shrine (just as a "shrine of monster summoning" would provide you with a single battle). A wilderness shrine would be like a bonus item, except that the item's abilities would depend on how effectively you worked on it using temporary skill values. Once used, it would vanish. A guild, however, would act like a dungeon in the sense that the more you achieved, the more of it you would be allowed to explore, and the more privileges you would gain. While you're stuck making low-quality swords, only one level of the guild will be available, but as you create more items and increase your skill, you'll be able to explore new levels and use some interesting facilities (the equivalent of monster nests), which offer additional challenges and special circumstances.

Okay... A knight and a samurai are pretty much the same type of character - the samurai *is* a knight, just as the paladin is. The shaman and druid are clerics, though you might argue that the shaman doesn't really belong to a strict clergy; wizard and mage mean practically the same thing, though a warlock is actually very different, since he derives his power from a great being, such as a demon... This list reminds me of Heroes 3, where they were so devoted to making an obese variety of creatures that they created medusas, medusa queens, gorgons, gorgon whatevers and wyvern monarchs. There was no synonim of "king" left untouched, no mythical beast kept in sanctity, as the five-year-old game designers built their armies from the shreds of legends. I propose that you bring all these classes into a single one, the "***-whooper", and be done with it. Seriously. While I have no doubt that you'll be able to give these classes some actual value, their names, at least, make it seem that you haven't given the story and kingdoms much thought.

Not really. Sure, the player might not feel so attached to it if you don't include unique quests, *but*... Suppose you have random quests specific to each kingdom, like the sort I'm designing right now for the Garithos campaign. So a certain king, strict with his subjects, might ask you to fetch some unfortunate conspirator to his trial. You *can* decide to free that person instead, but will get a lot of anger from the authorities, especially if you don't go to the nearest military base and report that some likely faction attacked you on the way (which may actually happen). Meanwhile, the neighbouring kingdom is giving out quests that don't really involve squashing disidents, so the liberal player will much more likely side with the non-oppressive kingdom. Let the player choose his starting kingdom and town, where he actually has a reputation that depends on the town's size, and place the story all across the various kingdoms, taking care that you don't place any key element inside a big, fortified city that might grow hateful of the PC. Or you have most of the story take place in an alternate plane, from which the player hops back into the world after each story-related visit. Say, most of the story happens in the land of the gods... Actually, you could also place the story on the kingdoms' mutual border, or some wilderness location, and have it so that you can procure quest-related resources, people and advice from any of the kingdoms, or act on your own if you managed to piss off everyone.

Seriously, why does the world always have to be destroyed during a mundane Ragnarok? Why can't it just evolve to some new stage before the beginning of the story? Or better yet, why can't the world you describe be a sort of colony, either created from the nether or reached by way of magic? Let's say that several nations found a way to reach this new world, and later on, some of the colonists chose to separate themselves from the home planet/continent/whatever by magically isolating theirs. Three well-developed colonies, two of them independent enough to have strong armies of their own and another one that happened to be holding a part of its motherland's armed forces, managed to conquer the rest.

Ok....
First of all, Zech, of course it hasn't gone into action yet. Not only do I lack the skills to do it justice, but I doubt I could finish it in a year. What I am trying to accomplish is a basic "script" to follow, when we do start it. Blueprints are *VITAL* for any game, much less one of this size. We are not talking an rpg like the other crap out there (walk around, find a +5 attack claw, kill some monsters, get your lvl 6 skill, kill boss). I'm not going to bother telling you my version (it's explained here), but you still "get the picture". A lot of it is still in discussion, like the item system, the story, the land itself, the gameplay, the characters, the classes, races, skills, blah blah blah... So please, if you have nothing to contribute, or at least comment, then please just not say anything at all.
I am trying to get this into a forum so that it can be discussed in a more... contained environment. Comments on wanting to see this happen would help any chances of us getting into that forum, along with any "healthy" criticism, so we can improve the game in this early, but critical stage.
Now, on the game.....
Items and Weapons. I wasn't trying to "confuse" the two (no spite here, just saying), I meant quite the opposite. I realize they are different (jsut as armor is), but I am seriously wondering about the wc3 engine. These ideas would each require a major facelift and probably coding. I can't code, nor do I know much about it, but I'm almost certain as to what it partains, and thats what we need. Like you said, the inventory system in wc3 is very limited (to be nice), and a deep inventory system, to compliment the items (I mean this in a vague term, including armor, weapons, and items) system.
lol! Yes, books are going to be put in, and I'm even looking (very briefly....this is seriously growing bigger in concept after every post), into a spell-book system, which would "learn" you new techniques, or bonuses. Reading a sacred book on spells would perhaps enable otherwise "lost" spells, making them a must if you want to transend the current class you are in. Learning the spell, I'm still deciding on this btw, would perhaps give you that spell to cast once, then you'd have to read the book again? Some games have this approach to mages, who stdy their lore, burning in their minds, and after casting are drained of energy, as well as the spell. Only after rest are they able to cast again, and read the spell again, "preparing" them for next time. Temporary bonuses are for scrolls, but even then, some should only be available to a mage who can read runes, magical language, etc. Books on the lore of cities, kingdoms, and the history would most likely be found in libraries. I doubt an orc would be holding "backpacker's guide to Ithil" (one of the countries), and would be nice to walk into a library, and find info and *gasp* books!
I'm happy to see that you agree with the "free-form" class system, which would make it more realistic, and more fun, then "you are this class, with these abilities only!".
The "job" or class system is borrowed from the ff series, which "used" to have a really fun way of approaching the classes (the new ones don't have classes, and are instead preset characters... hopefully will be fixed in 11?). While in a class, lets say a black mage, you will not only up your knowledge of the skills of a black mage, but you would learn abilities while being him. If you then wnted to be a knight, you would be limited to the spells you learned as a black mage, but not have the mana, skill, or ability to cast them as efficiently, being a knight. To avoid the person from switching his class for every monster he faces, after each level up, he will have the option to switch classes (or maybe while at an inn or guild also). There will be certainly some drawbacks to switching too frequently, but otherwise, switching classes should encourage the player to explore every class and it's unique abilities.
Weapons should have plenty of "unique" attributes, to make using different weapons a different experience. A dagger should not be overlooked, since it would be easier to use for an assassin, giving bonuses for sneak attacks, weight perhaps, and an extremely accurate attack for the one-hit assassin. A long sword, on the other hand, would be a whole different experience, being more suitable for knights as they parry and slash their way through enemies. Having preset abilities per wepaon (like the trip you mentioned) might be more ranged and varied, depending on it's realistic counterparts. A dagger "could" have the ability to have a percentage to "slit a throat", over a really high percentage, and whether the enemy was "watchful" or caught off guard. Just as a shield would have a "deflect" ability, making a random amounts of attaks (on percentages) deal 0 dmg? Classes should still have mroe consistency with a certain weapon "at the start", but be able to learn with weapons as he goes along. If a corsair, adept with a scimitar has been using a long sword for a long time, he should become adept with that also, having trained with it (perhaps even have guilds be able to teach "proficiency" or a form of it, for a sum?)
It's a shame we wouldn't be able to have a "slider" for the type of style he were to use. For instance, moving the slider farther away from aggresive to defensive, would change the stats accordingly, on the fly? This is a rather touchy subject, and will require a lot more thinking, but I think that learning new styles will be better, and suit the style of the game better. A class should have a style "preset" for them. A knight being aggresive, and a melee slasher. An assassin would be hit-and-run, dodging and striking when he can. Now if the person has the guts to go slashing with an assassin, and charge an enemy, then so be it.
Mages will be harder to calaculate, since the spells will be used in accordance with the weapons. Unlike most games, I wanted the sorcerer to be a good swordsman, using his magics to increase his ability to fight and survive. Enchanting his blade, magic armor, and speed enhancements, would make him, even in his robes, a formidable opponent. A mage, on the other hand, would be solely after magical power, using offensive spells, not just buffs. Sure, he would possess certain "protective" skills, but in a different form (firewall, summoning guardians, darkness, teleport..). The classes, I have decided (after looknig at them again, I agree), should be many, and varied. There will be a more open path, and will take diferent twists depending on which roads you take. Giving your service to a kingdom would open a whole different avenue to yuor goal, while a rogue-like approach would be more free-going (making the other rogues more friendly), but with perhaps less support from any kingdom. That goal could change forms also, depending on how you befreind certain characters, or if you choose to side with darkness, go with the rogues, ignore the problem, etc.
If you look at an upcoming project called "Warcraft Tactics", you'll see he has a neat system of displaying stats (not to mention his very cool battle grid system), but something along those lines would be better suited for this, I think. Having a bar for mana, and one for like would make life simpler, and easier, although have the basics of the wepon available should he want it. If I have a katana, the bonuses could be listed vaguely, like you said, and leave it at that. Performance could perhaps be equal among all weapons (except uniques and legendary items, which could be done in other ways, but..), but the way uyou fight could be decided on your weapon. If you favor lots of dmg, but no speed, get a maul, yet if you favor speed (and accuracy), but minimal dmg, get a rapier. Overall, they would be equal in combat, but each would suit different purposes. I don't think I will put in "magic" stats, like "sharp bastard sword of gueniuses", as it sounds lame, and takes more time than neccesary. Having a varied assortment of "basic" weapons, then having the magical weapons be like a "Tidal Blade" (a sword based off of water attacks, formed in the waves or something). which would usually be considered "unique" items, but are, tedhnically, just magical. Unique items, on the other hand, should instead be items like "So-and-so's axe", or "Thor's Hammer", which have a life all their own, and are definitly unique.
As for mini-games, I don't think mini-games is an apporpiate word, since it will cover SO much of the game. Like you mentioned, a battle scene could be considered a mini-game, through scripted sequences, battling for a goal within a goal (or being detached from the game itself, another term for "mini-game"). Mini-games can also be confused, or even incorporated, through side-quests. A knight rescuing a maiden in the woods is a side-quest (to be generic). Making them chase her down-stream in a rowboat, with you having to "paddle" using some sort of scripted trigger, turns it into a mini-game (to be lame lol).
I think that everything will happen in moderation, but since the world is so open, we can really look into practically anything without having to worry about "detracting" from the game. A more linear game (like the idea I was considering, with preset characters, and preset game components) would eliminate most attempts to include mini-games, as you would detract most elements from it. (going into a battle that doesn't exactly conform to the story of a linear story, makes it "in the way", adn loses the palyer (usually)).
The blacksmithing mini-game (it could be considered more of a "game element" if it was done properly), seems almost a personel like to you, and it's a good idea. Its things like this which can be put anywhere (the whole game in fact), and improve the feeling of being able to do anything, anywhere. Since I know you play NWN, the smithing "mini-quest" (if you can even call it that) had you collect different "ingredients" to make different items. It was done rather poorly, although it left you with the sense of wanting more, a deeper, experience. Obviously, the ingredient thing is pretty cool, but the fact that you had to bring it to a certain blacksmith, with certain items, with certain combinations, left you feeling like it was jsut another "collect item b and c, and bring them here for a prize" quests. I actually tried to mix different things (not reading thr book telling me to do otherwise), and after trying my 8th combination that didn't work, I gave up and read the book. Same in Diablo (which had an intersting rune-word system). If you had been able to make almsot "any" combination of runes, and make somthing, it would encourage you to ty anything, without worying of losing the runes (I lost a lot of runes before I figured out it was so limited, and jsut got the strategy guide for words). Obviously it take smore time to make an element for each combination, but that extra time makes it worth it!
Instead, we could have the "class" or "skill" of "Blacksmith", which you could use to repair, or create items/weapons/armor. Using a hammer, a fire, and whatever else you would need, would enable you to be creative, and customize your inventory more. If you had the ability to "alter" items (if you had a quiver of bolts, and forged it with plate armor, get barbed armor?), and allow you to have limitless things to do in your "spare-time". Obviously, all these need thinking over, including other "games" (arrow fletching could allow you to make different arrows with different feathers, ading a feather to your helm would make it a plumed helm, perhaps adding some small effect to it, etc . same with other types of items (glove and boot creation with leather creation skills)).
To the idea of mixing the free-roaming, with the involvement of a city, I think that we can, with just having one story but lotsa differnt classes and skills, just have the way be open to the palyer's needs. HAvcing each kingdom "able" of hiring, or enlisting, or participating with the hero "should he feel like it", makes it a lot more...deeper.
In other words, scrap those classes I mentioned, I will now go back to the "tons of hereos" thing.... Which, by the way, will have both a knight and samurai, but they will be entirely different warriors. In one sense, you have the noble knight, bent on bringing order and justice, usually very religious, adept at using shield and sword, very little magic (any magic turns him into another class (paladin, battle-mage, etc), while on the other hand, the samurai, although extremely loyal to his country, does not rely on religion so much as his honour. He is actually pretty ruthless in way, unlike the knight, and employs faster, and more agility like moves. He usues the bow spear and katana (along with many other knives and swords), while the knight (on foot) prefers only the hand-and-a-half sword, and shield, with a dagger, and short sword (mace, war-hammer, and other things). They are entirely diferent in heritage, which will be the main thing diference between a lot of things in this (like the shaman and cleric).

I gtg now, so talk to you later