Your feelings on map protection?

If Blizzard was against map protection, they would have done or said something about it. Maybe at least warned one person. Because it isn't harming anyone, I don't believe they really care. Get me a statement from someone that specifically says that they forbid map protection, and I'll retract my arguement, despite the fact that I still believe map protection is right.



See paragraph 1.


-No, most people on Bnet merely play maps; they don't make them.

-Yeah... they're popular. I never said they weren't.

-Ah. I got sick of DOTA and stopped playing it a long time ago. However, it still did enjoy an extremely long life while it was protected. Well, I'm one of the few who enjoys ToB's gameplay because its takes lots of teamwork. Not to mention the eye-candy. I don't credit its loss of popularity to the protection, but rather to the notion that many players would rather play a tome race and/or god-item fest.

-You NEVER heard of FMVH? Force Majeure Vampire Hunters? How could you not? How long have you been playing WC3? That map was insanely popular for a long while, and easily one of the funnest maps ever made.

-Many of those maps are just variants of the same genre; not the same map. I've seen plenty of originals rather than just mods.



I never said that people LIKED playing rigged maps, or that they were popular. That's the point. People will edit a map, uberize a hero, and then keep hosting that map and spreading it around.


No. It's not your file until I give it to you. Anything that I do to the file, including locking it, before I give it to you, is well within my rights and is not violating yours. I do what I want with my property. If I locked the file while it was on YOUR computer, then I'd be violating your rights. Don't demand anything from me. If you want to keep arguing the EULA, then go read paragraph 1.


This debate ought to be focused more on whether or not map protection is morally right, rather than if I'm crossing some legal line.

Like I said, even though they don't support protection, that doesn't necessarily mean that they forbid it. Also, both of those "separate" points say the same thing... they don't support protection.


When I said making maps, I also meant making mods (editing). Most players just play; they don't make maps OR edit them.



Go sift through the downloads section, and browse a few other sites. Do any of those skins/models look familiar? I'm fairly sure they're all there, I know I've seen most of them in there. You could've at least looked before saying that... geez.


A protected map would never have that problem in the first place. That's the POINT. Can't you SEE THAT? It's not just maliciously intended to suppress creativity, its to prevent people from pollutting the pool of maps online.


The difference is that you don't have to take my file. If I broke into your computer and corrupted your file, then that would be forced on you. You have no choice in that matter. You don't have to take the file from my comptuer, and you do not dictate what I do with my own files on my own hard drive. So, it does matter which computer it is on.


The legal line would be the EULA. And no, I don't feel I'm losing any ground here, because I believe that your arguement of the EULA is faulty in itself. You're saying that protection is wrong just because the EULA, a legal agreement, says I can't do it. Laws are conceived and enforced by people. So, essentially, you're just saying that I can't protect a map just because some guy said so. That's not a valid reason. If laws are INTENDED to be the fruit of moral standards (law are not always right and just), then arguing on the grounds of morality would serve the same purpose, but would be more fair.

Your sermons about user rights seem to be based on morality, anyways; even moreso than my argument is, so it's not like I'm trying to give myself an advantage there.

sigh... i only use map protector when i'm in beta versions of my maps. that way no one can get into the imported stuff like the icons that i slave away making. mapstealing is a big crime to me. hasn't happened to me, but it would really suck. but there's no way to fully prevent it... map stealers can always override map protection if theyre smart. and if theyre smart enought to do that, then they might as well make a better mod or map, right?

if you noticed, i already said that mapstealers can always access a protected map (if they know how to). but if they are just noobs, they can't get to it. i wouldn't mind nearly as much if an expert got in (better than if a noob got to my map) ^_^.

aplha- for TOB, i dont believe Jacinthe would like her work ripped off.. She made it for Tides of blood specifically. Even if she does support people using it, you'll see the entire credits go to the map's "maker" without a mention of her. As for your map unprotector, you'll have a hard time distributing it, since most forums (including wc3c) are strongly against map unprotection.

Vex- Thats a brilliant idea. Open source is to learn, right? I dont consider learning renaming the file, every unit, adding a +100000 gold code to it, and then slapping your name on the map. Atleast they learn how to make the triggers your way, and cant rip it. My only worry is the sexurity of artwork-- can they extract that after your method?

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Sure it is a file on your computer, but in no way do you desirve to edit it. Keep it to the developer to decide. In real life, are you allowed to take someone's hard work, change the wording around, and put your name on it? No. Thats plagerism, cheating, and plain ignorant. I think a mix between the two is in order; an enviroment where they can learn but not steal. If the average b.net user had an IQ over retarded level, and any morals, I'd support alpha. It just seems they arent ever up to a challenge, when it comes to gameplay or to mapmaking. The only problem is map unprotection. I hate that. it violates every right a mapmaker has, and is pure theft. Blizzard's TOS intends that people dont sell their .w3x at a store and charge to play/etc, using their game engine. They do, however support user rights. I think vexorian's method is the key here.

cant wait till someone rips tob and submits those skins to wcsearch! dont be so greedy

...Haven't you ever considered that maybe people feel an attatchment to something that they slaved over for months? Sometimes even a year? Whether or not that made it for a game is irrelevant. Blizzard knows that if it REALLY told people that if they didn't want people to rig and steal their maps, then they couldn't make them, then virtually NOONE would make them anymore. Why? Because people don't want to work so hard on something that other people can steal. If every single map was open source, then they wouldn't last long enough to get popular before at least 4 or 5 people slapped their own names on it. That's why that don't specifically forbid it.

In a hurry, so I'll make a few more responses later...

On a side note, if blizzard didn't support map protection, what are does instructions to protect maps in bnet's top ten FAQ?

And yes, my idea keeps the map OS and if somebody wants to crack it, it is surely because he wants to steal / rig the map.

See Darky's Circle Defense, he doesn't stand against map protection but has that kind of protection (though mine will be more difficult to crack)

Tides has had protection since before Jacinth started doing models and such - it's only to hide their tricks. They can say it's to protect Jacinth's art, but that's bull.

Blizzard doesn't feel that way. That's why they have never taken any action against map protectors. If they were really against it, they would have done SOMETHING by now, over a year after the game has been released and when more than half of all maps are protected. Period. I'm not going by the EULA, I'm going by their actions which OBVIOUSLY say otherwise. Actions speak much louder than words.

Blizzard will never forbid map protection because they know that they would lose a large chunk of the mapping community; the mapping community is what keeps the game alive. You really think they're just going to ban all of those players using protectors? It wouldn't just cause tons of players to hate Blizzard, it would seal the game's doom. If the majority of the mapping community saw map protection as something malicious, THEN Blizzard would forbid it; however, they don't. Like Vex said, if someone needs to crack a map, then they almost certainly intend to steal/rig it. If a person only intends to use his rights to take malicious action against people, then those rights should be taken away form that person.

EDIT:
Ah, very good point Lord Vexorian about the FAQ. This is solid proof that Blizzard condones map protection. Even though they don't OFFICIALLY SUPPORT it, they will still tell people how to do it. Here it is. Just scroll down a little; it's there. This was written by someone from Blizzard.

There you go. End of story. If you still want to argue, I could probably ask Brett himself on his thoughts, or maybe just point him to this thread.

2nd EDIT:
I went ahead and started a thread on the battle.net forum. It's right here.

How many times do I have to tell you that just because they don't bother to support it, doesn't mean that they are against it. They even tell people how to do it. Get that into your head...


I never said they supported it. Try to read carefully, please. The lack of the function in the editor does not mean in any way that they are against it. It only means that they don't support it. Two different things.


Yes. People are very petty. They feel attachments to something that they've worked hard on. There's nothing wrong with that. And don't say it is because everyone is forced to make their maps open, because they aren't; I already told you why. Blizzard never stated that the mapping community was completely open; that's merely your opinion of what it should be. Blizzard condones map protection. Period. You can keep bitching and moaning about it, but they aren't going to ban it.


Once again, I never said I was trying to argue along legal lines. I was going by Blizzard's actions and the fact that not only do they not take action against protection, they even tell people how to do it for themselves... come to think of it, they are supporting it in a way, then. They just aren't providing it directly. It's more of the do-it-yourself approach. Actions speak louder than words.


EDIT: At the moment, I am fully prepared to retract my arguement if Brett Wood states that Blizzard will not tolerate map protection. They are the true authority in all of this, and they are the ones who will decide if everyone must be forced to give their maps up. I believe that if he says that Blizzard is fine with map protection, you ought to retract yours as well, but somehow I doubt you would... Leaving it up to Brett's final word makes this a lot easier, considering that we've mostly just been going back and forth for the last 3 pages.

Read my edit in case you missed it...


I can use it to support my arguements because if they don't support it and they don't forbid it, then that makes it fine for me to protect my maps. Get that?


There's no shortage of open maps to look through; even Blizzard's open maps can be looked through. And, once again, even if they are against it, they certainly don't seem to want to do anything about it. I'd say it's definitely more neutral than against. They haven't done anything at all to back up their words in the EULA, so I don't really consider their opinion of particularly map protection to be negative. Maybe other third party programs, but not these.


They own the map when it is on their hard drive, and they do what they want to it. People take that map if they want. If you don't want a protected map, don't download it.


See paragraph 1...

After being away for a few days, I've returned and both alpha and maegus make very good points.



Legal disputes and game quality aside, unprotected maps will thrive because people will make more versions of a map, allowing it to stay around longer. More versions and the small chance of top quality edits are great for a map.

Again, legal disputes and game quality aside, a protected map will help prevent the rigging of maps (of course, there's no sure way to stop editing), and maps that only have a single version (or a few versions) are much easier to spread around battle net. I've found that there are a handful of users that are annoyed by multiple versions of a single map.


Now....



I couldn't agree with alpha more. I made this point a while back, I honestly do not care about my name being on a map.

Anyways, regarding the discussion about the mass edited footman wars and such, sure, the map stays alive and has been around for the longest time, but does that make it good? Many b.net users are just satisfied with what ever, not all of them care so much about quality of the map, in fact, most are satisfied with the common arena or madness type map.
My point? Just because a map is popular, doesn't mean its any good.

Ok now, I don't think it matters if blizzard isn't against map protection. I would go as far as say it doesnt even matter if they support it, the point is, its against the EULA, and if its against that, then you can't do much, because you agreed to it. You could think of it as a law that a state might have, just because they dont strictly enforce it, doesn't make it legal.

That just about wraps up what I think about the both sides of this discussion, personally, it's a very difficult decision to make... but what ever.

Edit: You know what? It's a freakin' game. The point is the enjoy playing it and have fun, if you think a map is rigged, don't play it! If you don't like a map, big deal, play something else. Forget it. If someone steals your map, hey, don't whine. You're the one taking the risk of putting it on battle net, and hey, if you want to protect it, go for it, if you feel you need to. People act as it if it unavoidable is some jackass releases a rigged version of the map, so what? If it's as bad as you think it is, it should die. Maybe your map just isn't that great, ever think of that? If people dont enjoy playing it, it won't thrive! Only the greatest of maps can thrive with protection on them, and I'm sorry to say that most people don't make maps that great and will protect them, so they just croak. eh.

If Blizzard backed its EULA up, then I would have no arguement... however, the fact that their actions are contradictory to what they say in the EULA causes me to question whether the EULA is actually right. I'd like to hear from Brett Wood to clarify the issue.

Regardless what blizzard's actions are, and I'm not disagreeing with you, you can't argue with the EULA. You agreed to it, and until it changes, map protection is techincally wrong.

It seems to me that the people who feel map protection is right, just don't care about EULA, or at least not enough to make them stop. If blizzard really wanted to enforce it, they could, but they dont think of it as much of a threat to the game, obviously.