How complex of a map would you play?

LOL!!! Funny, funny. I'm just going to add different elements of more popular games and add them to my map discreetly.

I know that this forum seems to worship complexity as a holy cow, but I beg to differ with this view.

In my opinion, an ideal game should be as simple as possible, yet still manage to be fun and have some strategic depth. This is true of any game, whether its a card game, a video game, or sports.

Even very deep board games have, at their heart, very simple rules. Chess does not have upgrades or spellcasting. Risk and Diplomacy do not have tech trees or damage/armorclass systems. Go is regarded as being even more strategic than Chess, but its rules are simpler than almost any other game!

In fact, complexity in Warcraft III maps has a tendency to backfire. Even though I am no stereotypical 12-year-old Bnet moron, I am not likely to play a map that has a ton of complicated rules. I don't spend 12 hours a day playing WC3 UMS maps, and to spend hours just to learn how to play one map (out of the thousands of maps out there) is, IMHO, ridiculous.

Mapmakers need to recognize that their UMS creations are not MMORPGs. Although it may take hundreds of hours to make a good map, people are not going to spend hundreds of hours playing your map. Most likely, people will spend an hour here and an hour there playing your map. If it takes 3 hours just to learn the basic strategy of your map, no one will bother to do so.

One style of map that, IMHO, has achieved the best ratio of playability to complexity is the DotA/ToB style of AoS map. The AoS mechanic comes with its own unique form of strategic depth, due to the way EXP is distributed among players in WC3. 4 allied Heros working as a team will be overwhelmingly more powerful than widely-scattered heros in the short run; however, they will gain only a fourth of as much EXP as the scattered heros. In addition, there is the slow speed of movement and respawning - time is a valuable resource in AoS games.

I know that the AoS map is not exactly the paragon of strategic depth; no one would mistake DotA for Chess. However, it achieves an extremely high fun factor, is much more strategic than other popular UMS maps, and is so simple that any newbie can pick up the map and play.

IMHO, that is the standard that all mapmakers should aspire to. UMS maps, like any other computer game, should be first and foremost fun. Strategic depth comes in distant second, and complexity should be avoided if anything.

I would like to note that, in retrospect, my previous maps Arena of Legends and Nuclear Defense were far too complicated. If I were to remake them, AoL would have no text commands, and Nuke D would be limited to a single Nuker per player, and no "nuclear reactors" upgrades.

Complexity is necessary when you need it to add strategic depth. Starcraft would not be the same game if it only had Minerals, and no Vespene Gas. Unreal Tournament would not be as good a game if it wasn't for all the secondary-fire modes. However, unnecessary complexity is like the Chinese proverb of "drawing legs on a snake". Quake 3 needed no secondary fire to be the best deathmatcher ever made; in fact, secondary fire would likely have ruined its weapons balance.

warcraft 3 melee complexity, it should be easy to start of with, but pros can get much better.

desty

Easy to start off with, but how can pros get better if there are no more complex features? Footy wars, you get footmen, you kill things with your partner. Theres not a real way to master it except knowing the right things to buy and at the right times to attack.

Without less complex maps, however, could we really say that complex maps were complex? Anyone making a complex map should thank/hate (depending on your situation) the less complex maps, like footywars, for making them different.

Hrm. Actually, that's a bunch of semi-rhetorical crap.

Indeed.

2 words. Internal Complexity. Lots of features that create a good map, but all very easy to learn and apply.

Have to agree with Bodo here. While I consider myself of above average skill, when it comes down to it, most people want to just jump in and play, they don't want to miss out on 10 minutes of play trying to read skills, run all the way across a huge map to do something as simple as sit by a fountain etc..

Good rule of thumb is: less is more

Smoke and mirrors. Simple mechanics, good eye candy and as much replay value as possible.

Instead of making things over complex, or adding mega features, try adding multiple ways to win so that the player wants to try it again with a different strategy.

Most of the time people won't play again because it was too hard and they feel the need to play until they win, it's usually because they won and had a great time and want to do it again.

Somewhat Complex

in my opinion the best map is one you can play over and over again and still find something new. once you have learned all that you can about a level it slowly loses what made it a great map. confusingly complex all the way!

Hivemind Where can I Get your TD map i am Really interested in Playing it.....

About complexity i must say that if a map is worth i will try to learn to play it, but if i feel it is so hard that i can't understand even the basic rules, or if i get killed before i can just understand how to play because everyone know the map and i am the only newbie , i will think this game sux because i wouldn't even had the time to understand it. but if i have plenty of time to discover the game if it has quite intuitive game play and if people who know the map can help and support, i would enjoy playing a very deeply complexe map (or even more)...and with this state i would even enjoy more a very complexe than a less complexe map... but still can u be sure that the player will have time to learn before to die and that newbie would still have a little chance not to die without being able to defend theirselves and that the teammate instead of insulting newbie would provide help and hint...
the most interesting in the map is teamplay and good help and strategy within team, if it is just a everyone do whatever he want and the team is just multiple individuality instead of one real team why are we playing multiplayer game?? just for the pleasure to kill and humiliate other player??

make it how u want it to be, even if 99% of people is dumb that don't mean ur are oblige to do a dumb map, if 99% of people are supragenius that doesn't mean u cannot do a stupid map that will maybe even give fun to the genius player...do whatever u want there will always people liking your map and other hating it that's just life... (trust in you) (do what u think is good) (and if things doesn't work well, just change it)

Lol....Norbo.....PUT IN A GATE

I voted Confusingly complex because it reminded me of Final fantasy... Ahhh the hours of my life gone to fear of sephiroth. if only i knew he whould die so easily... i was lvl 99 and and still afraid of him... I thought it was impossible with out knights of the round (my pc crashed durning chocobo races) 84 hours without gameover time (Not much)... anyway back to the poll Kick sephiroths butt!
err wait... emote_sweat
oh yea load that map up with secrets to death!

Wow, this is one enduring thread.

Regardless, I'm currently revamping the Norbo's War system (will be renamed soon for reasons stated at the website in my signature) into something more recognizable and intuitive. I'm fairly surprised about the results from the past few months. Confusingly/Very complex are tied for the lead..

Hopefully the new version will be able to cater to all of that 73.5%, and perhaps encompassing the lower tiers too.

I have just recently continued a map.

I have learned from some on the mistakes I've made... and adjusted to battle.net's tard quota.

Some real simple stuff can be really helpful. Nobody ever reads the text that is on the screen, and they don't really read those unorganized quests in the quest menu, so I figure for 1 to 2 liners, I'll put the info in dialogs :gsmile:

Heh heh, this is a good way to make them read. They must say Ok to a dialog reading "Before Continuing, please type the name you wish to be called." Is that clear, PRIVATE?

And so far, everyone who has played the map has successfully typed their name. "I pity 'da fool who don't listen to dose dialogs!"