Your feelings on map protection?

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04-09-2004, 03:12 PM	#76
Maegus	Blizzard pretty much has a neutral stance in this. They don't want to risk taking sides in such a controversial issue. They aren't for or against protection, so it doesn't matter if you do or you don't. It's just a difference opinion really, which is why this debate will probably never end unless Alpha or I just get sick of it.

04-09-2004, 03:30 PM	#77
TheGameFreak	hmm, i have a dilema here actually. in my map i have some debug codes, and anybody could just take a peep and use them... see i dont wanna protect my map coz its just not me to do that, but this could cause some big problems... well wadya know, i've been got by one of the reasons to protect, how ironic ^_^

04-09-2004, 03:41 PM	#78
Maegus	Heh. Yeah, I bet lots of makers have Admin triggers and such...

04-09-2004, 04:25 PM	#79
CrazyAznDanger	It's a good system because there are some losers around that just steal the map and put their name for the credit. Those idiots...... Anyway some other loser creates a anti-protect system and boom. The whole cycle begins again.

04-09-2004, 11:44 PM

#80

Magical-snaiL

Wow.. this is still going in a loop...

To sum this little deal up, Alpha is 100% right that no one has the 'right' to release modified maps... Blizzard is techincally against map protection according to their EULA, but what they have proven is that they are nuetral, that in no way means they support it.

Then again... what most people have been trying to say is: They just don't give a crap that they are going against the EULA, and telling them that they shouldn't be playing the game doesn't do much. Maybe they shouldn't be, but the fact is, no one is stopping them.

Simple as that.

04-10-2004, 01:50 AM	#81
CrazyAznDanger	HEY!! Does Blizzard care about us? NO!! So, why should we care about them?

04-10-2004, 04:29 AM	#82
TheGameFreak	hmm, i'd say they do care, if they dident they'd be pretty much buggered. see its a customer whatevertheotheroneis thingy, we hold the power here, well all the game players do, not just the ones here.

04-10-2004, 05:13 AM

#83

Maegus

YOU are making complete arguments? Are you serious? Do you REALLY need me to point it out to you? I can prove it EASILY that you've ignored plenty of my points... and you're still ignoring them. I keep telling you OVER AND OVER AND OVER. It's like you're not even reading what I'm typing! You really ought to do it a little more discreetly... please go back into my other posts and address the ones you've ignored.

You still say I'm ignoring your points? I asked you what points I was ignoring, and you ignored that. Lol! There's more proof :) You just don't have an answer, because I always look through your posts and refute every single thing I can so that I don't end up in the poor position that you are in right now. Please tell me what points I am ignoring and I will address them fully for you. I know you would never do the same.

I shouldn't even have to tell you how ironic it is that YOU are calling me a filibuster... this is how our arguement has gone: You say something, I refute it. Then you say it again, and I have to refute it again. You do this over and over, and then you say that I'M the one going in loops?

It's not that I don't understand your points; it's that I don't agree with them. You hold the EULA in higher regard than Blizzard itself (I'm not going to bother to explain how stupid that is... I already have at least twice). Why? Because you know that unless you do that, you have very little arguement. Opinion and morals are a very large part of a debate; that's why we will never see eye to eye. That's why this debate literally has no end.

04-10-2004, 05:58 AM

#84

Magical-snaiL

Quote:

HEY!! Does Blizzard care about us? NO!! So, why should we care about them?

...that has to be one of the lamest things I have ever heard.... Regardless if you think they 'care' about you or not, that doesn't mean that you're right to piss all over the EULA, doesn't matter if they take action against you, it's still not right.

04-10-2004, 06:14 AM

#85

The Gearhead

Quote:

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Please, point me to the line that says results of using the program (or any similar statement) such as w3m and w3x files are completely and wholly Blizzard's?

Do you know why it is legal for us to protect our maps? Because they are legally ours, however the material that is Blizzard's is not. Ergo: Their models, their software (not our triggers), their skins, and all other material contained in the MPQs that WC3 uses... is theirs. They are the only owners of that material.

HOWEVER...

Triggers are not theirs, as you write them. These triggers are simply used by the program, the World Editor, and Warcraft 3.

Your models, your skins, are YOURS!

However, there is one limit.

You may not sell, or otherwise use commercially or for profit, anything created with the World Editor without direct permission from Blizzard.

Seeing as how maps are provided free of charge... There is no discussion. Protecting our maps is legal, Alpha. And to all you others.

If you don't believe me, read it. The only ways in which "New Materials" (products created by World Editor) are limited is that when you break the license agreement or transfer the license of ownership, or when you try to commercially sell the new materials. All of those three above state that you must simply destroy (delete) all your maps once you sell the game, or what-have-you.

In short: Blizzard does not own your maps. They simply impose limits on how they, and their program, may be used.

Yes, WE Unlimited breaks the license. As does UMSWE. And any other modified world editor. And, I suspect, the 3rd party one on this site. Seeing as how Blizzard encourages people to extend the lives of their products (heh, Starcraft anybody?) I think they don't really care. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they like money.

Oh... and one LAST POINT.

Alpha, you are a smart guy. I can tell this by your posts. You are, however, stubborn.

But, it boils down to three things.

One: You are only breaking the license agreement when you try to make a profit from the world editor, or otherwise attempt to dismantle it, or if you transfer ownership and decide to keep it
Two: It is at Blizzard's Sole Discretion as to whether or not to prosecute. You telling us that it is not right to protect, and that it is illegal, is in fact the opposite of what Blizzard has demonstrated in the past. At many times they could have made protection impossible on MPQs.
Three: Numerous times, EULA's end up being invalidated in court. Because upon purchase of most software, retailers refuse to accept returns (because it is so easy to copy software today). Thus, you end up "stuck" with a product which had a hidden agreement you do not agree to, which was not fully listed on the product packaging. In these situations, you need not adhere to the EULA because you had no choice in accepting it. By the time you read it, you already owned the product and you would not be able to return it. It would be out of its packaging. (Edited last sentence)

04-10-2004, 06:27 AM

#86

Magical-snaiL

Quote:

You say something, I refute it. Then you say it again, and I have to refute it again. You do this over and over, and then you say that I'M the one going in loops?

Maegus, you aren't really 'winning' the debate or anything, basically what it boils down to is, both of you are trying to go against eachother's opinions. Neither of you are going to get anywhere like that.

Alpha says you shouldn't protect because it's against EULA. Maegus says blizzard isn't against protection so you should do it. Alpha restates his position on the legal deal, maegus slams it in his face saying he doesn't care. Repeat over 3 pages.

That's basically what's happening, where the debate is right now is just opinion, and you neither of you will change eachother's thoughts on this subject.... there's no point in really going on.. unless maegus wants to try to prove that he 'won' the debate. Psh :\

04-10-2004, 06:54 AM

#87

The Gearhead

Alpha's problems are... First, the EULA has precedents for and against it. Internationally as well. So, its quite possible, especially in the states, that the EULA would be knocked down in a court of law. Second, the EULA doesn't actually say Blizzard owns the rights to what you create with the world editor. They merely control the rights to who can possess what is created by it (Those who own WC3) and that you cannot make a profit off of it.

04-10-2004, 07:01 AM

#88

Roara Wolf

Hi.
I'd like to say this;
Alpha, you're not saying anything new. I should have posted 40 minutes ago, and logged off. But I didn't.
Feel free to e-mail me if you feel that I'm wrong, but map protection is simply adding files. I'm sure a smart enough person can use World Editor to protect a map.
And since your arguement is entirly based on what World Editor can do, and agreement we agreed to, I can safely say that map protection is, although not supported by Blizzard, not wrong in any way.
And don't give me that crap where they say "Look at an existing map so that you know where to begin" (not entirly quoted, because I have to get off very soon, and can not provide full quotes), because they have included maps, that are unprotected, and, in my oppinion, exellent places to start from.
From what I've seen, there's an arcade game, an RPG, a Tower Defense game, and another one that I cannot remember.

04-10-2004, 07:46 AM

#89

The Gearhead

If Blizzard wanted you to not be able to create maps, or control them. They would not have Author or Description tags. Nor would they have custom load screens. Or the ability to import files. Or, for that matter, the ability to generate custom text. Or, they would have simply switched to a more complicated standard than the MPQ. (It took a long time for MPQs in starcraft to be figured out. God bless Storm.Dll)

04-10-2004, 12:22 PM

#90

Maegus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magical-Snail

I've never said I was winning the debate. I said that Alpha isn't doing as incredible as he thinks he is. He kept going on and on about it, saying "You lost" and "Quit clinging to this like it's your last hope." and "I'm right. You're wrong. Case closed." Why are you telling this to me? I'm not trying to prove that I won the debate. I already said that it has literally no end because its just based on opinion. Your perspective on protection could change from this debate, but in the end it all really comes down to a matter of choice whether you want to or not, especially considering Blizzard's neutral stance.

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