[Vagabond Trader] skill set!

Hidden information: I am attempting to work on a set of Neutral Tavern heroes, for unexplainable reasons (i.e. I love custom heroes :P). Link to the ~Project Page~

First off, let me just start this off with a disclaimer/infomercial:
This was originally Askhati's idea. Used with his permission, of course. :P
This entire thing literally sprang forth from the fertile mind of Askhati, while me and him were discussing some Goblin heroes in my Custom Race topic. In fact, here is the original excerpt:

Hidden information: Quote: Originally Posted by Askhati On that note, may I present the Vagabond Trader, my replacement for the Trade Prince. The idea here was to go for a travelling merchant of some kind, peddling goods and being gypsy-like and sneaky at every town he stops. Visually, it's a blinged-up goblin sultan (big 1890's stovepipe hat, a la Willy Wonka; pointy shoes; flashy jacket, etc) sitting on a plush pillowy palanquin on a draft horse (he doesn't straddle it, he just perches on the top on his pile of cushions) and waving a whip and a flintlock pistol around. His abilities: Trade Routes: the Trader keeps track of all the towns and villages in the area, allowing him to quickly reach a favourable market. When cast, the ability reveals the location of all Town Halls (lvl 1), racial Shops (lvl 2) and defensive structures (lvl 3) belonging to enemy players on the map. Swindle: the Trader pulls a bad deal on the target enemy unit, cheating him out of his hard-earned gold. Affected unit has (-10/-20/-30)% AS and each attack against the Swindled unit has a (15/25/35)% chance of stealing 10 gold from the owner of the Swindled unit and giving it to the owner of the attacking unit. Mercenary Guard: the Trader hires a mercenary to help him protect his goods. The mercenary is permanent once summoned, uses no supplies, and the type summoned improves per level. When a mercenary attacks a unit that has been Swindled, it can steal 15 gold instead of 10. Market Stall ultimate: the Trader sets up a temporary shopping stall at the target location, generating a random amount of gold every few seconds for as long as the stall lasts. The stall can sell some basic consumable items. Friendly units in the area also have an increased health regeneration rate.

As such, he is TOTALLY COMPLETE (= Dusk, don't avert your eyes :P). I am simply asking for some finishing touches and any possible feedback.

This hero needs very little, actually. If you think one of his abilities is imbalanced or unwieldy, though, speak up. However, this is basically the stuff. The only 2 things I can think of:
1. The Hero Name ("Vagabond Trader"). While Askhati wanted to keep it as "VT", I suggested "Profiteer" (fits with the short, one-word names of both Tinker and Alchemist neutral Goblin heroes). Since he hasn't been on in a few days, and I didn't want to wait for him... I'll just post it anyway. Basically, it's probably going to be Askhati's decision, but if enough people tell me it should be one name or the other, that'll help.
2. The Model. He actually has no planned model. I might end up making a [Request] thread later on, but I'm pressed for time.
So if any modellers want to take a crack at it (based loosely on the description above), just PM me

This hero's role is basically, economic support. He doesn't have a lot of combat prowess, nor can he buff your guys really well... But he can get Gold. :P And scout. As is the Goblin way.

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Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated!

Well, its certainly interesting. What you have to remember when making Heroes that deal with Gold is that ultimately, a lot of RTSs come down to a resource war. While that makes this hero useful, you have to be really careful with him. I don't have enough experience with the Regular game to tell you whether that's over-powered or not, but I can tell that it easily could be.

Also, is the Mercenary Spell like Feral Spirit, or can he summons billions?

As for names: Dirty Dealer, Tycoon, Peddler. Thesauruses are awesome for this kind of thing.

An economy-based hero? indeed.
Seems to promote Zerg-Rush tactics, though.

Also, you *have* to add the names Shortarm Deeppockets, Master Moolah and Ebenezer Stooge xD

Idearr:

L1 skill: Bribe
Bribes the target unit to join your army for an amount based directly on its level. Bribed units periodically drain a small amount of gold in wages and will desert if not paid.

L1 skill: Greed is Good
Passive. Grants the Trade Prince and all Mercenaries and Bribed units the ability to steal X gold on attack.

This theme for a melee game? You can't be serious, man.. It's okay when used sparingly, but gold interaction in every skill is absolutely horrid.
Forced synergy is terribly lame.

is there another example of economy hero? has anyone actually implemented one? and tested in game?, just curious about how useful it may actually be.

Btw I find it a very interesting idea.

1. Abso-freakin'-lutely. In fact, I had several choice words with Askhati about the whole "2 Gold-based abilities!?" deal. I'm still not sure. But instead of debating it internally and getting nowhere, I figured I'd ask some more knowledgeable people.

(Also) In fact, what I was most worried about was making this hero a necessity to opposing players. Like, the economic boost would be just enough to give you the edge, and people would be almost required to get him just to compete (resource-wise)!

2. Hmm... I believe he was thinking of using Dark Portal (so = permanent), which wouldn't be like Feral Spirit.
However, it can be re-negotiated.

3. Thanks for the names, but sorry. Read it through; Askhati nearly required the name to be "Vagabond Trader", and I'm gonna work on making it "Profiteer", but anything else won't fly.

See, the idea was to have it be a literal "Vagabond Trader" (perfect name, which is why I don't totally mind it :P). He's a Neutral Goblin; he's just a 'wandering merchant' who goes around selling stuff. His abilities and name outline that perfectly, methinks.
(However, "Profiteer" also fits the theme, and fits well with the other two Goblin Neutral heroes).

Moreoever, (and I'll hit on this later), this hero must be different enough from a similar hero in the Goblin race! (as if my work wasn't hard enough). This whole idea came as an alternate to the "Tradeprince"-type hero (a gold-minded royalty-type hero with shady business contracts). So of course, a lot of names/abilities/themes could fit well with both.


I just threw that out, for lack of a better one. He deals with Gold (f'real), so "Economy" seemed to make sense. However, see above; I don't want to make him "necessary" for players to compete.

Zerg-rush? How so? (do you mean the whole "Perma-summon" thing?)

Hmm... I like (and appreciate) those names, but I've also got to get some names for my Goblin race-aligned "(Trade) Mogul". Especially "Ebenezer"; that definitely fits better on the latter.

See, while both are Goblins based on money, one is Neutral and focused more on the "wandering merchant" aspect. Unaligned, just out for a quick buck and to trick the locals, focused on lavishness and seemingly-soft, but actually quite harsh and brutal at the core (have to be, in such a tough world).
Whereas the "(Trade) Mogul" is definitely aligned (Goblin), out for the betterment of the race... But mostly himself. While not as "royalty-obsessed" as the Tradeprinces (one of whom he happens to work under), he is extremely wealthy and cunning; think Politician + Kingpin + Merchant. Runs under-the-table operations, skims off the top, embezzles funds, and all that good stuff. :P

So hmm... "Master Moolah" sounds pretty good for this guy, but "Ebenezer Stooge" sounds more like the "Mogul". The first could probably go for the "Vagabond"... Lol, gave me a chuckle. :P


1. No, I'm not serious. Canst thou prescribest a better "role"?
Also, I fail to see Gold in every role... Swindle/Market Stall = obvious, Mercenary Guard = meh, just more Swindle... But Trade Routes has nothing to do with Gold. Heke?
Also also, in posting this I was basically asking "will this fly in a melee-setting"? From the many comments, I glean that perhaps it will not. The ultimate will be the first to be changed; though. Methinks it can be given another purpose other than Gold/per/second Gaining. Swindle is pretty iconic, and removing the "Gold" part would defeat the purpose of the ability.

2. "Forced synergy"? O RLY? Well, as opposed to arguing, I'll take your word for it... But why?
--EDIT--
Wait, what if instead of gaining extra gold, the "Swindle" debuff was effectively "re-cast" on the attacked unit? Makes sense theme-wise (After he Swindled someone, his armed Guards would make sure he "stayed down" and could be easily stolen from again), and gives them a purpose besides "just attack random stuff and guard me, 'k guyz".

OR... (see, the whole "summon X guys" thing is rather boring to me, and I think it needs some kind of side-bonus), what if each Guard had an +Armor aura that only affected the corresponding "Vagabond Trader"? Or perhaps had a chance to "defend" the "Trader" and take the damage for an attack periodically?
(assuming I could trigger that. :/ :P)

3. Again, might I ask for some sort of alternative when you post "X is a bad idea"?


No, there isn't. And probably for a very good reason (just look at TToR's Troll Snotling Merchant hero; he was basically necessary for a Troll player to compete at all).

I'm glad (you find it interesting). That was approx. 43% of the reason I posted it. :P (*cough* interesting as in you want to model it? *cough*) (<--- j/king! Don't feel obligated!)

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I wonder where Askhati is...

lol, well then if its in TToR then there IS actually.
Anyway I cant add any project right now, I really want to finish my to do list first.

Uh, NO. TToR was a lot of things, but "melee-compatible" was not one of them. Nor was "cohesive". :/

Yea yea, totally understandable. Seriously, I was kidding. Love the list, though. Glad to see the Headshrinker made it. :P

(BTW, what's your new avatar? It looks like a Bionicle head of some sort...)

IMO, you should have an ability that lets you bargain with an enemy unit, eg you give the creep/enemy unit a sum of gold/lumber to (for creeps) not attack you and (for enemy units) desert/turn to your side.

Hidden information: Did you make your avatar? Cause I'm fairly certain I've seen it before..somewhere :P

i hv my own trade prince hero based of the custom goblin model with the pirate hat. he has workers under him and a foreman. basically all he does is mine stuff for ppl and establish 'havens' for them. he has no attack. he has a spellbook of natural abilities: summon a worker, find resources (ping in map), "Trade Diplomacy" (or osmthing like that) - makes him and his crew invulnerable for some time, coz he isnt supposed to fight but he has to have a player team..
summoned crew techs-up as it grows.
he can also bribe units - cost a lot of gold (w/c mines a lot...). make his crew go 'double time', etc. he can also summon a zeppelin for faster travel/trade/escape.

much of a rice farmer hero really.

donut3.5's (et al) LOW FILESIZE and GOOD goblin models: drillbot, flamethrower, etc. are good for the goblin crew. there are also the in-game shredder, clockwork goblin and sapper models...
the tinker model or the Goblin Merchant model somewhere here, or in the hive, works for foreman.



for a Ladder-type game, maybe
a Pillage/Profit aura?
a boss-around ability that makes workers harvest more gold/harvest gold faster, or make people more efficient (e.g., +ms, for traveling) generally.

if he isn't gonna be a fighter/caster hero then he's gonna have problems leveling up. maybe you can have him level up by resources deposited at player town halls globally.

^I appreciate your ideas, but... Huh? What are you talking about?? Goblin models, and donuts, and leveling with gold...

This topic is about this hero. And besides, he has all his skills; I don't really need replacements.

You might, but you should know by now that I would much rather see you develop your own map than have someone develop it for you. One of the greatest skills any designer of anything can have is the ability to take criticism and turn it into correction. I would much rather foster that sort of development as opposed to the development of an ultimately inconsequential hero in just another of many new maps.

Alright.

Can you explain how "forced synergy" is bad, then? Because I see it as more of a "secondary usage", or a good reason to have what would normally be a generic summon. Even if it was changed to ?

Well, the difference between forced synergy and a more tactical synergy is something like this:

Forced: Steals more gold than regular units, period.
Tactical: Maybe it attacks really damn fast and deals very little damage, so it procs swindle a lot more often. It accomplishes a similar goal, but it also requires the player to make the mental connection (Fast attack speed = More gold), and it doesn't feel so constricting.

Your hero is pseudo-combat/map control - don't seem to work together.

Maybe you can:
1) Change Trade Routes into a skill that increases movement speed between Town Halls AND Market Stalls.
2) Change Swindle so that it also makes enemy players lose gold when they have N > X units proximate to Market Stalls and Town Halls. ("The Vagabond's people rips-off your enemies".)

These changes will make your hero more "I own the map 'coz I have all these expansions"-ish. Fits into standard WC3 games since they have some element of map control.

Swindle + Trade Routes + Market Stall = Map "waypoints"/forward bases/expansions for your WC3 army. They work to effect control/retention of these expansions/etc. Mercenary Guard is like a free tower.

So: Master Vagabond = map control hero.