Genetic Parasite (theorycrafting/awesome map idea)

I don't normally theorycraft, but this idea really jumped out at me and I thought I would post a thread about it because I'm somewhat interested in making a map like this. Anyway, DemonicDragon sent me an errant IM with an idea for a map he might want to make in SC2:
He wasn't online at the time I read the message, but I liked the idea so much I started thinking up concepts for the map, because, with his permission to do so (or his involvement), I'd like to make a WC3 map out of this.

So here's what I came up with:
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The map would be a FFA (or it could be teams if so desired) battle in which you control a single hero unit that fights against the heroes of other players on the map (with some nice terrain; not some stupid cityscape arena/gladiators map shit). The thing is, though, that the map isn't about killing creeps to level up your hero, getting super items, or destroying bases. In fact, the winning conditions wouldn't be a certain number of hero kills or anything like that; the map would be all about genes, DNA, and mutation.

In addition to the arena-like playing field, there would be a section of the map for each player that houses that player's hero's DNA. It would be a specific area for each player with models representing the genes the player has collected/created. There would be the 4 nitrogenous bases (ATGC), but since it's always A+T and G+C, there would be two orientations for each base-pair:
Then a player's sequence of base pairs would be laid out like:
All of the genetic information would be grouped into genes. The basic gene would simply be 1 base pair, so there are 4 basic genes. Then, there are 2-pair genes, 16. Finally, there are also some genes that can be maid with 3 pairs of bases, but as that is an extraordinary amount of combinations, perhaps only 1/4 of those 64 possible 3-base genes would even make anything. Each gene would add some property to the unit; the basic ones could add Health, Mana (if mana is even applicable in this map, I don't know), attack speed, and armor or something. Then the second tier of genes could modify other stats of the unit like move speed, sight range, etc., as well as various passive and active abilities. Finally, the third tier would add very good abilities to the unit, such as giving it a ranged attack or whatever. Abilities that are really worth getting; I just thought of one right now: Scramble - Switches the order of two random base pairs in target opponent's DNA.

The gameplay would be based on fast action and actually killing people. Since the gameplay wouldn't be directly based on kills or deaths (for the most part), I'd want to see people dying a lot more readily than even in, say, a FFA hero arena (Battledome ]I[ for instance). Every time your hero kills another hero, two things happen. First, you may steal a gene of your choice from the unit you just killed, but only if that unit has more than, say, 3 genes. Second, you are given a base pair of your choice to do one of two things. With your new pair you can either start a new gene or you can add that pair onto an existing gene to mutate your unit and yield new abilities or stats.

On your hero the stat bonuses you have would be pretty evident, but the spells would likely be organized within spellbooks. You'd have one spellbook each for 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier abilities. Or maybe they would be offensive/defensive/passive spellbooks. I don't know, but the number of abilities on a unit at the end of a game would likely be more than 6, so some sort of spellbook would need to be used.

New bases can only be added to existing 1- or 2-base genes (3-base genes cannot be modified), and when adding a base pair to an existing gene the effects the gene had before you mutate it are removed. So say that AT (the first letter in any given base pair being the one on the bottom, and the second the one on the top) gives +20 health, and AT-AT grants +25 damage. By adding a second AT to an existing AT, your unit will lose 20 max health and will gain 25 damage. Adding a base to a 1-base gene would always yield something, but adding to a 2-base gene might not always do something. If that's the case, then that pair will become 'dead' and not doing anything; the gene will simply give the appropriate 2-base pair benefits it gave before adding the 3rd base.

There would have to be a way to remove dead bases, so perhaps when you get a new base for killing someone, if your hero already has a dead version of that same base then that 'dead' one will become revitalized and you can do whatever you want with it, which would free up an otherwise dead gene.

Now, the hardest part about designing a map like this would be the interface for adding/stealing genes. As I said, I could see having a separate area of the map for each player to use to see two strands of DNA: his own, and that of another player. There would be some sort of interface to switch which other player's DNA was shown, but I would first say it could show any ally's DNA as well as the DNA of the person you last killed.

A lot of the interface would be done with trackables. There would be a button to click to cycle through the DNA strands you can currently see, and each base pair would have its own trackable associated with it. In that way, mousing over a gene could give specific information about it, and selecting a gene to steal would be as simple as clicking on the appropriate one. Adding a gene would be similarly easy, as you would just click where you wanted the new pair to be added. I imagine a few more buttons that you could use to cycle through the different pairs that you are able to add, or maybe it could be done with spells' hotkeys acting like arrow keys.

Another thing I think would be cool would be if each gene had a sort of a thing over top of it grouping its bases together. Imagine one of these: [ but turned 90˚ clockwise. So each gene would be bracketed off and then it would have a name for it, like so:

So okay, there are all those ideas, but how would you start and end this game? Well, you'd start off with your hero unit; everyone's would be the same. Perhaps the model used would be selectable or something, but all the basic stats would be the same. Then you'd get to pick 3 base pairs of your choice. You could start 3 genes with them, you could make a 2-base and a 1-base gene, or you could try to make a 3-base gene. The choice would be up to the starting player.

The game would end either after a certain amount of time, when there have been X hero deaths, or when a player reaches a certain number of points. Either way, the player with the most points would win. How does one get points? Well, you would obviously get points for killing other heroes, but you would gain the majority of your points by making new genes. For every 2-base gene you made during the course of the game, you'd get some points, and for every successful 3-base gene you'd get a fair amount of points. You would also get points for being the first to discover each different combination of genes (2nd- and 3rd-tier only) within the game. Another thing that could be used to give points is whichever hero had the most health at one point, the highest movespeed, the most armor, the most spells, the highest attack damage, etc. would gain some points for each category.


Okay, so the idea sounds pretty cool, but it seems like once you played the map once or twice you would immediately know which base pairs made which abilities and you would always get some super-ownage tier-3 ability right off the bad and rape everyone. To counteract that, I propose that at the start of each game the combinations that made each spell/stat bonus would be randomized, with only the basic 4 stats staying constant throughout all games. That way, the only way to figure out what the combinations for each ability/whatever are is to experiment and combine bases.

One more thing I just thought of is that the map would have a 'New Game' option, where you could start a new game if desired. Before the new game starts (or before the first game for that matter), there would be a way to disable certain stat bonuses/abilities. So if you wanted to play a game without +health, you could still make just a 1-base AT gene, but it wouldn't give you +20 health. You could, however, add a second AT base to it to gain the +25 damage that it normally makes unless that's disabled too.


TL;DR version: Arena where you get abilities and stats by stealing genes from opponents and making your own genes by adding base pairs together.

Alright, so what do you guys think? Suggestions and/or comments?

More ability ideas off the top of my head More ability ideas: Kill one of target player's bases/genes Temporarily disable a random gene Temporarily stop target unit from being able to modify its DNA (player can't add new bases/steal for a short period) Reversal - Temporarily reverse the direction of a unit's genetic code or a few random genes Invert - Random stat-affecting mutation instead becomes a negative bonus for a short period Allow player to see target unit's DNA for a short time

Do you really need to use trackables?

Surely just having a row of units with abilities that change them into the appropriate runes are enough.

Idea sounds awesome. But I think the "authentic" labeling of genes and DNA needs to be more for show than taken literally. People aren't going to want to read A-T-G-C... It in many cases will be gibberish. I think if the map had unique spell-like abilities that fit into theme somewhat, and then playing well with lots of kills made your stats and abilities uber, that would be most interesting. 2 things pop out at me: SHITLOAD of object editing, and tons of on-death triggering with a complex upgrade system. But it sounds great.

[TARGET LOCKED]
[TRACK TOPIC]

This idea could be really fun!

lulz i giv u downs

I'm intrigued. I've also started filling a small notebook with "theorycraft" which applies almost exclusively to Zerg and Zerg-related ideas I'd like to explore.

Regarding unit models, I suggest an appendage-less base model with appendages determined by the genes. A ranged attack gene sequence would add an appendage to the base model that may fire spines, spit acid, what-have-you. A health boosting sequence would add bulges on the back, organs for whatever. At least this is what I intend to do.

this is not for warcraft, too hard for engine.

I kind of have to agree with DioD here. I'm afraid that this is going to be cutting it close.

The concept is great though.

I definitely think modifying the model of the unit to add stuff would be a bit much, but I don't see why the actual mechanics of the map wouldn't work. What seems too hard to do, DioD and hawk900?
Well, no, it certainly wouldn't be a string of text. I guess I forgot to mention that I would make each base-pair a model, and A, T, G, and C would all have colors corresponding to them. Then, the models would have a nice shape and be laid out to create an un-wound double-helix. Like this picture, but flipped 90˚ to the left (and not-curvey):

What do you mean by the second part "...and then playing with kills..."? Another thing I thought up last night was this: instead of randomizing all of the possible genes, what if each gene had a specific base that was always associated with it, but then the 2nd and/or third pair was always random every game. While this would give some advantage to veteran players, it might make more sense, thematically, to always associate AT as the 1st pair of any gene that affects health and so forth (and then, say CG would always start any gene that modified armor or damage, etc.).
Maybe a bit of modeling, but not too much OE work. Only all the abilities that are on the map, which could be greater than 20 and no more than 84. How much object editing do you have to do for an RPG or even an AoS? Also, on-death triggering wouldn't be too hard; you'd just execute a function or something with the killing player and the killed player. Upgrading... maybe, but it'd really just be a linear search comparing MyGene.Base1 == AllGenes[i].Base1 and MyGene.Base2 == AllGenes[i].Base2 and MyGene.Base3 == AllGenes[i].Base3; if they match, then you know what gene it is and you can, say, call AllGenes[i].AddEffects() to do the appropriate stuff.
I don't quite understand what you mean. Are you saying to have 4 units (an AT, TA, GC, and CG) that can be placed next to each other, and then on each unit there would be an "information" ability, a "steal this gene" ability, and an "add a base pair" ability? I guess that might work, but I don't think the interface would be nearly as neat as with trackables.

Assuming I use trackables, would it be more efficient to have 1 area for all the players with a trackable for each player there, or a separate area for each player, with trackables only for that player in that area. If I remember Ammorth's test correctly, when moving away from an area with lots of trackables the lag tended to decrease, so having the fewest number of trackables on the screen at any given time would be the best idea.


Anyway, I'm open for more thoughts on why this isn't capable of being accomplished in WC3.

I think it could be accomplished, just it could be very difficult.
Love the idea though.

You're probably right about the model. Still, I like the idea of adding appendages and such, but better to use a complete model for base and tack things on as needed.

I'm saving my ideas mostly for Starcraft 2. In your case, however, I see a great opportunity to test your ideas. What you create now could only be improved upon with SC2.

By that vague second statement, I meant motivation to invent unique methods of killing people, by using ability synergies and ganging up perhaps. Sort of like DotA already does. I guess in comparison to an AOS, it's true, this would be minor OE. I'm one for this map as long as it has a clear-cut upgrade system and abilities that promote dynamic strategizing.

So an ability itself wouldn't just give faster attack speed to the gaining unit, but some kind of prison so can you wail away at your enemies, for example. Then, a DNA upgrade wouldn't just entail greater health regen (another example), but increased duration on the prison or something like that. Genes could also pertain to skills within a certain skillset (or each hero has a themed spell that corresponds to a type of DNA strand). Maybe that's complicating the issue, but I think the idea makes sense.

What is to stop the game from snowballing from out of control? When you kill a player not only do you get a free base pair, but you get to steal one from your victim. The game does need to intensify and be winnable, but this sounds like the game will end (in effect) way too quickly.

RANDOM MUTATION MODE

These are features of the AoS genre in general and have nothing to do with DotA. DotA is in base structure a rehash of the tried and true game design laid forth by its predecessors. Deviation from that has only come with the more recent AoS maps, and will be further developed in the future.

Anyways, Pyro, the map has a lot of capacity for being fun. The basis works already and is fun. (See Darwin's Island) The primary difference is that as opposed to just killing a unit and receiving either a gold or a lumber (protein or fiber) based on the creature you killed, it would be a much more elaborate gene-stealer-styled system. Same principle, really.

It could totally work in both WC3 and SC2 and doesn't need trackables for anything. Could also be really fun, but whether or not the map turns out a killer or not depends on the execution. (As usual)