Advanced Melee

This is an advanced melee:

Desolace
Elite V1
- 3 new Heroes per race
- 11 new units per race
- 1 new General per race
- Balanced for the most part
- Completely new and original map to play it on
- readme listing all changes

Generals are unique units that greatly enhance ones army. You may only have one at a time, and they are expensive.

Testers Needed!
Fiery_Maelstrom

Testers for my New Advanced Melee are really need, If anyone has the time please download it, and send your feedback to:
[email protected]

Yeah um... I've found a big problem already..

Quel'Dorei were Night Elf High Borne, not High Elves....

In fact, most of your units need to be relooked at when it also comes to their relationship to their race. Most of the new Night Elf units bother me, mostly the Enchantress of Elune. I mean, Death and Decay on a Night Elf unit? Come on! Do your homework.

Also Owlbears, Owlbears don't exsist.
That was a model rename after they decided not to use the Owlbear model as Guardian Treants. You should REALLY do you homework.

Okay, I took a moment to look more into the how you executed the Night Elf units and builds. Over-all, the appearance and abilities bothered me. Here is a list of things that bugged me:

• A unit with True Sight? Why, you already have a Huntress with True Sight, stock. Don't need to change a dang thing there. I mean her owl of course.
  
• Pretty much all the new Night Elf heros. Their models were a real visual killer too. I looked more into the Enchantress, she's too small for one thing. Plus, she's more like an undead unit with all those Ice spells. It looks more like a unit YOU wanted to have on the Night Elf, more than what would more based on the WarCraft Storyline.
  
• Giant Treant, This should be removed. Nothing is more horrible that a giant, solid green tree.
  
• The Advanced turret is also a problem, the purple leaves make me think of Poison, so I begin to think look at it differently. Also, it's the exact same size as giant Treant, which is a big no-no.
  
• They do the Sients have the same weapon as a Huntress? They should be just strickly slash melee.
  
• There needs to be a reason to have a huntress.
  
• Tech Tree bothers me. Makes me feel like I'm playing StarCraft. Which I think is what you were thinking of when you made this. By the way, I don't like StarCraft.
  
• It bugs me to see a single unit up for training in the Huntress Hall. It just don't look very thought through.
  
• Why shouldn't I just mass Green Drakes and Giant Treant

Also, I've noticed some of the undead units turn into skeletons when they die. Why not have a few new Night Elf units Detonate when they die? Just make the range shorter so it doesn't horribly effect their own allie's mana. The focus should be to pretty much destroy the skeleton that killed them.

Needs a lot more work.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll go through it all, and make changes where needed. Testing like that really helps in this map. and balanceing is never done.

BTW -=- I have done my homework.
Quel'Dorei are the high-borne Night elves. They were told by Malfurion to stop pratising the arts of magic or faced death. In a brash attempt to dissuade Furion, Dath'Remar and his followers unleashed a great magical storm on Ashenvale. This was stopped, but Malfurion not wanting to slay his fellow elves, banished them instead to across the sea. These Quel'dorei went across the sea to the lands of Lordearon and Azeroth and founded the Kingdom of Quel'Thalas and were refered to then on as High Elves or the Elves of Silvermoon.

And Last time I checked Berserk, normal and enraged Owlbears DO exist. Wildkin is their name on the Blizzard website, but I chose to use Owlbear as it was already in the game.

------------------------------------

The Glaive Sentry is a cheaper melee unit, that a person may use early on to use as a cheaper melee. The Detection allows it to be useful later on and It also later benefits from Glaive attack, which will be mentioned in tool tip on a future patch.

Relating to the new Heroes. I did my best to make them unique without editting spells. And sometimes I had to sacrifice what made more sense for something that would suit them better. Ie. I could have made her spells all naturey like, but then she'd be stuck with the same moves as her predescesors. I hope to, when FT comes out. change all the new units/heroes spells/abilities with custom ones

The Giant Treant has gone major changes throughout testing and is by no means done. I actually think having a large tree tank is quite useful. Maybe its ability to do damage will be adjusted...

I might in a future patch make the Ancient of Impediment a variation of the Ancient Protector but a stronger(or lesser) tinge of Green. The purple does make it look diseased, but purple was used to make it noticably different.

Im not sure what you mean by "Sients" but the Glaive Sentries have the attack as to be more useful later on considering their attack is weak, but they do have detection. The Huntresses are still superior, But I will address the issues between them as from your post, you have experience.

I also do not like or play starcraft. I am not sure what you mean by the tech tree, please elaborate.

The unit from the Huntress hall is a tier 2 heavy ranged unit that all races have. The sacrifice of having such a good unit early on is the inability to be upgrading at the current Huntress Hall.

I will address the strengths of Giant Treants and Green Drakes.

Any future input you have will be appreciated. Please Send to:
[email protected]

Please send any ideas on how to remedy any of the issues you have addressed

Thanks for testing the map and I hope you can give more input on what you think needs addressing :)

What the hell? Sure a few things don't totally match up, such as the the Death and Decay, those things are patchable and changable.

I wonder who else doesn't like Starcraft. It was a popular game, has nothing to do with Warcraft. Fiery's tech tree is perfect, it allows room for Frozen Throne buildings to be added to the tech-one builder unit.

Orlean Knight, did you ever think that to add and balance spells on certain units took time? And you can't expect every Night Elf unit to have Entangling roots and Force of Nature can you? I know that to properly balance a new units map, there needs to be some mixing up of the spells.

As for your " No such thing as Owlbears " comment, what the hell is wrong with you? You're playing a game entitled Warcraft: III, that's the third installment, and you're complaining about something that doesn't exist? Perhaps you should question your own motives for playing this game, the fun comes from the fantasy. You should really get some intense phyciatric help if you believe that a unit in a computer game is illegitimit and you feel the need to harass a hardworking map maker about it. I'll bet you're one of the people that try to make a new units game giving your favorite race unlimited food and resources with units that all have Rain of Chaos and Finger of Death.

A unit with truesight! Finally, those damn Shades get everywhere and without at least one unit that can move around your base and kill them. Making many huntresses and upgrading owlscouts is tedious and costly, compared to the low cost of a teir-one melee unit with Truesight.

I can think of something more horrible than a solid, giant, green tree; it's called Rain of Chaos. The treant gives the Night Elves something to tank with, hence the what, 8 food and 400 wood it takes to make them.

The Tower of Impedement ( tier 2 tower) is an excellent tool. It implements the ability to slow with a spell and has frozen attacks. I've noticed that with seventeen Protectors and an army, a computer can out-micro you and end up breaking through a few of them. The slow tower is very helpful in that it can wreck havoc on approaching armies. If purple makes you think of poison, then you've never seen that venom is a translucent yellowish color. Purple is a dark color, blending in with the night. It could be seen as a femine color, but this tower is no gentle lady. Size means nothing, have you seen Arthus' scale next to a footman's? I doubt he's 14" tall, I think a smaller selection scale and smaller model size is an advantage. It makes it harder for opponents to click on.

The Sentry's do have a slash attack. It's called 'normal'. Fool.

Huntresses don't suck, they still have thier moonglaive ability, and the advantage of being upgradable. Sentinel owls are still useful, only not as useful as say: another Primal Rager?

It bother's you that there is a single unit trained in the hunter's hall. Poor baby, every race was given a unit that has a special ability( such as critical strike or bash) that is trained in the upgrade center. Or perhaps you haven't played the other races yet.

Then mass green drakes and giant treants. You won't get far at all against a player with a well balanced army and say... two siege units/machines that will tear apart the treants. Green drakes, sure devour is cool. But heavy armour is wrecked by pierce attacks. Such as the attack of a Druid of the Talon in crow form or a single sorceress. There are counters for everything, live with it.

Why don't you go edit a spell that casts on death that has a smaller radius than detonate? It's not as simple as it sounds. Also that would be insanely cheap. Name 3 undead units that spawn skeletons when they die...

You need alot more work. You go bashing someone elses hardwork when I'm sure you could not to better. So stop harassing other peoples creations.

I AM the original beta tester for Night Elves and I see no particular strategic advantage over everyone else. They are all equally balanced. In fact, we've been working on this map for at least two months.

-Riven,
proud beta tester of the Night Elves for Fiery_Maelstrom

Alright, let's take some time to describe the Owlbear model. Now, what I mean by the fact "It doesn't exist" is as follows. Originally, this model was to be the "Treant" that would appear when casting a certain Night Elf spell. Latter, it was removed, but it still kept it's place in Single Player, like many removed things did, as it was called by the large Spirits of the Forest.

Now, they have a model that was to be a treant, but since they didn't want to waste him, just name him the next best thing. He kind of looks like an Owlbear, so no one would really mind if they just started to "call" him an Owlbear. He's actually just a really small and agile Tree Ancient. It's like renaming the Ancient of the Wind to "Supreme Owlbear!"

That is what I mean about, "It doesn't exist".



So if you remove True Sight, and make Glaive's visible. You'll get the same game-play effect, right?


Edit Spells.



Great! I look forward to it.


I'm simply saying this, cut it's size down and use a different model. Seeing to many of those Anienct Protectors annoys me. You may want to consider using an Owlbear model (Sense it's really a Tree Beast anyway!), or a Treant Model.


Why not give it that horrible lime green color of the present Giant Treant?



Simple, One-too many buildings.

Example: (Using NIght Elf as example)

• Once you've finally made an Advanced Wisp - Your options of constructing new buildings are pretty much non-exsistant. (StarCraft-like, though there wasn't an Advanced worker, you'll see what I mean soon)
  
• So instead of building the building you want or need, you're forced to build a building you don't need to get the building you need. Make sense?
  
  "Hey, I want Green Drakes! - Damn, I gotta build an Ancient of Wind first.. what a waste of space."
  
  - If you upgrade to tier 3, you should have access to most advanced buildings. But tossing just one building to unluck a good share of the advanced buildings wouldn't be bad.
  
  -Huntress hall unlocks a good share of buildings. Maybe you should divote a building to creating Generals and odd little upgrades that will unlock the others. Honestly I'd like to see a new building where you can buy those Marksman.
  
  -Suggestion: Reach Tier 2, be able to create advanced worker. Build a Huntress Hall-like building that creates Generals, Marksman, and Upgrades. Once you reach Tier 3, all Advanced Buildings will be availed to be built without having to be any useless buildings.

Of course I know it takes time. But I also respect the time it takes to do an outstanding job making everyone happy than simply pleasing a simple few. You can edit spells, seeing someone who doesn't is a bother. But I can understand if he wants to wait unit Frozen Throne is released. We all want to hold off this that comes out.



I explained this before. You obviously don't understand what I'm talking about. You have to know the people I do in Blizzard to know what I'm talking about.


Um, I wouldn't assume things. That's a deep insult too. I'm trying to give productive feedback here. At least HE knows how to take it.


Just remove Truesight, and make the shades visible. I bet $10 you get the exact gameplay effect.


Damn boy, do you have anything productive to say? You're just picking at my suggestions without giving any of your own.



I agree


I'm conserned becuase it's the exact SAME size as the Giant Treant.


Can you ever say anything productive?


It's bothers me becuase there can be a more positive alternative.

I'd enjoy it if you would say something that it productive Riven. So far, I've tried to go through your post and respond to your words, but it's pointless since you pick at everything I said. I would have enjoyed a much more mature take on it, but you just don't understand the concept of "Constructive Criticism".

Do I have anything productive to say? Have I ever heard of constructive criticism? Wow man. Obviously you haven't read the credits in the loading screen. You would see that I tested the Night Elves before this map was ever released to you. My constructive imput goes directly to Fiery_Maelstrom's face. We are in constant contact with each other. I don't need to use this board to tell him what to change.

Can I ever say anything productive? You're not putting in alot of insightful ideas. All you're saying is: "Edit Spells, change models, I don't like that this is purple, I think the huntress needs to be pointful, remove invisibility from shades."

Well, that's not quite that simple without the TFT Editor. Models don't mean much, I'm sorry if you don't like the model used for the new heroes. I, personally think they are awesome. They were all used from the Night Elf unit table. The purple-color of the Tower of Impediment means poison to you, I don't see how that is relevent. Tell Blizzard that thier Orb of Venom(Night Elf orb bought from the Ancient of Wonders). I believe the invisibility on the Shades gives them thier advantage. Not everyone thinks to build their True Sight unit.

If you have any ideas for balanced spells by all means, post away. You're "constructive criticism" is nothing but bashing the work of a map maker. You do better. If you think that he is wise to want to wait until the Frozen Throne editor is released than you shouldn't be telling him to edit spells.

You've neglected to mention the quality of the map itself. The terrain is beautiful, it leaves few "open areas" and is filled with doodads, interesting items, as well as many creep camps.

Care to elaborate on you're solution for the upgrade center? I don't fully understand your thoughts on making a "Hunters Hall-like building." No such thing as a useless building. Everything is made for a reason, and the tech tree allows early game teir4 units to be slowed down.

To you, which building should be removed? You say there is one-too-many.

Gaint treant model isn't as flawed as you make it out to be. Model size is not collision size. They are, infact, GIANT treants. Not TINY treants. Their model size reflect their name. The "horrible lime green color" also gives them distinction. So people with them charging into their base don't think they are being attacked by towers. The Impediment tower also needs to be made distinct so it can be killed with focus fire.

-Riven

Proud original beta tester for Fiery_Maelstrom's "The Desolace"

As one of the maps creators, you should be more open minded. You call my suggestions "bashing". To be honest, if you can't take my first segments of suggestions, then I wont offer the rest.

Go ahead and test your own map, ignore outside input.

And yes, I've done better. That's why I *was* offering my input.

Then by all means, attach your map. Or tell us the name of it.

I do call your "suggestions" bashing because you started off by insulting Fiery's thougts on the Quel'Dorei. You then told him to edit spells without suggesting stats or names for any of them. Your offered criticism was, I'm sure, helpful to Fiery. My opinion remains my own, Fiery is a more open minded guy, I take insults to myself and my friends as a diliberate attack. I hope people still try this map. But I'm sure many have given up on it on account of your first post, immediatly attacking his unit names. Also you're second post went immediately to bash his custom units, looking to the original units for support. The Glaive Sentry was given True Sight to add another helpful unit into the game. Have you ever seen the Treant model? It's pretty lame, especially when tripled in model size. The Protector model looks cool and intimidating, compared to a walking shrub on an acid trip.

You should make a map, balance it( if you haven't done so already) and post it. I'd be delighted to see this "better" map.

-Riven
Proud original Beta Tester for Fiery_Maelstrom's "The Desolace"

Well I looked over the input here, but I am going to have to make a new string to get testers for my maps, because unfortunatly people only usually read the first 2 or 3 posts and on this string they start out "Ive found problems.". In this new string, I hope we can not argue as much and possibly address other issues we do not know about. I also would like input sent to: [email protected]

This is so no more arguments are posted on the String that 8 message boards are linked to. I hope to still get input from you OrleanKnight, as you have brought up some things that need addressing. Not all strategies were covered when we were testing, so it is possible that there may be unbalances. I hope that I can still get some positive feedback from all the people testing it out there, and I hope people have not already decided this map is full of bugs.

So I am going to start a new post and hope we can have some positively addressed feedback on the map. I am just doing this because 230 views and 30downloads is kind of dissappointing.

Later :D

Actually, in my opinion, the both of you arguing about the map features proved very constructive I believe. From both sides' arguments I can see pretty clearly the pros and cons of the features of the night elves race of this map according to how a player approaches his play.

I guess constructive criticism is in the eye of the beholder because perception of individuals are different. I'm glad Fiery chose to take it as advice. I will download and try this map. I hope those who weren't involved in the beta testing of this map will download it, try the other races, and offer their own comments.

It is hard not to forge our comments based on what we feel strongly, so giving a very balanced "constructive crit", one generated after a very thorough check on multiple perspectives, is pretty darn hard. One easy way is for many players to post one-sided comments in the same place, then let the map maker decide.

Riven and Orlean Knight, the both of you are giving constructive statements in your own right, just don't end up developing this into an argument. We all have opinions, whether sugar coating it or making it look harsh will drive the point through is up to the perceiver.

By the way, where did you get that icon, Orlean Knight? Looks like some orcish bear, very nice.

His Icon is the Nuetral Hero Beastmaster from The Frozen Throne Beta. :)

And thanks for trying out the map :)

Wow I've tried the map and liked it a lot. Here are my opinions, they are open to objections, I've only tried it once, will try it more tonite with my friends.

1) There's a problem with the Forest Sprite, the hotkey for the Ancient of Impediment is the same as the one for the alta. It was also pretty hard to distinguish it from the regular wisps.

2) I love the giant treant, saved my base more than once HAHA. They tanked while my hero was reviving. I had enough time to churn out huntresses to defend. I also like the fact that the Eat Tree ability is preserved on him.

3) I love the long bow archer, accompanied by the giant treants, they are superb.

4) How did you get mana on a building!? Teach me dude!

5) I couldn't stop laughing when I saw the venomous spines...they are so adorable.

6) I think the hero's abilities for the Enchantress of Elune is explained by the fact that she (like a Demon Hunter) has learnt the dark arts.

All in all, I think the new units potentially open up a great deal of options for new strategies and very little can be said about them without thorough testing in multiplay.

How did you make the new heroes such that only 1 can be used each time? I would love to see your method, I did a similar thing for another map, trying to introduce a 5th race...a lot of triggering needed regarding the availability of that hero.