Harem Dancer

Okay, I'm very much looking for feedback and suggestions/improvements on this one. I actually last touched it, oh, around 3 months ago but couldn't post it anywhere for feedback because it was for DOTA 2: Thirst for Gamma by Eul.

The hero in TfG is officially called 'Dancer of the Sands' and is based on the Demoness (Succubus/Vile Temptress) model.

Now that TfG is officially out, I think it's now safe to ask around for help on it. The screenshot I took is a little too wide to post here without messing up the post, so just follow the following link please:

[Note: if any of the links don't work or seem to lead to the wrong image, just try again an hour later...it'd just be a temporary server problem]

Dancer screenshot

For the hell of it, the 'concept work' this skin was based on is the character in the following links (first is a drawing, second is a Poser 3D model) so you can see what I was TRYING to make. Yes, I designed this hero from the ground up, concept -> hero skills -> skin. ;)

Dancer sketch

Dancer Poser model

Any feedback/suggestions for improvement, please? I'd mention I can't do model editing, so the 'wings' on the Demoness model are supposed to be a sort of 'back veil' from her wrists to the back of her pantaloons (as I can't flat out remove them due to team color on them).

Psy D

Major model edits are needed for this to look remotly close. :-\

6/10

Jackoo modded that model, removing the wings but flattening the breasts somewhat, but it isnt too noticeable in game.

I did a skin for that particular model Here

It needs a lot of work. Shade and smoothen the skin. The other pics look good. Why is she always winking? Or is she missing an eye. lol j/k

Whoa, flattening the breasts, indeed. She won't fit in with the other War3 Females. ;) If you know what I mean.

Btw, nice Skin White horn. :P

I think the dancer is a great idea, but that that model is not the best choice to carry the idea out. In fact, there aren't a lot of female models in WC3 that you could even consider. One I think might work a bit better is the female Assassin/Warden (non-hero) model - you could edit the cloak to look like long hair of just about any style you want, though it would probably take a little model editing to touch up the hood to look like hair, for the portrait. She seems to be the most feminine and least ugly of all the female models, so far.

Another somewhat decent one is the Sentry/Watcher model (Night Elf), but she doesn't look too great when she runs. Then again, neither does the Demoness.

As for the current skin, as-is, these are my suggestions. Were I doing the skin, I would lower the saturation a bit on the shadows, and make them a little bit darker in places (on the skin, hair, and clothing all). I would also add some highlights and shadows to the gold trim, and perhaps play with them a bit to make them look as shiny and metallic as possible.

The mask isn't bad, but through it the nose looks a bit strange. I believe it could use more of a shadow beneath it, so it doesn't look quite so high in her face, and those nice highlights on her cheeks could be pushed in a little and slanted more, so they run from her temples towards (but not connected to) the corners of her mouth. That gives the model a bit more of an elegant, high-cheekboned look that I think would go with the concept very well.

There isn't much that can be done about the stomach. You did the best you could with the model you chose, but it is just very horribly deformed (the model, not the skin). I seriously recommend either using a different model or heavily touching this one up.

You also might try editing the neck of her outfit to match the Poser concept (crossing between the collar and the bust and then circling around behind her neck). I think it would make the skin look a little more intricate and complex, without being too gaudy.

All of the above is, of course, my opinion and a matter of preference. Feel free to disregard as you please. =)

Good luck on the skin, and the map.

Okay, I'm going to split this the post into two parts, the first with an 'update' of sorts (eh, not much of an update, more of some manic dodge/burn/smudge work really) BEFORE I read Jacinthe's response, and then for what I have to say in response to her reply based on the FIRST version way above.

Part 1:

As the above says, this is mostly some (probably worse for the skin) burning/dodging/shading/smoothing work that probably both helps and hurts the skin. Try the following link:

Dancer skin, variation 2

She's not one-eyed, by the way. Just a playful type of assassin-ish character...tries to enthrall a victim before 'striking', if you know what I mean. ^^

More feedback? (please)

Part 2:

Heh, Jacinthe...I regard you as the BEST skinner I've seen so far from your work on the Tides of Blood forums (and the map itself, of course ;) ) and was actually about to post on the ToB boards for feedback as well on this skin (just as a skinner, as, well, I'm sure the fact it's for TfG would make me either get ignored or flamed to a crisp there, seriously [yes, the map needs work, I highly admit] <: ) primarily to get help from you. ^^

Let's see...

Exactly. Blizzard did not make it easy for using female units in roles other than archers or magicians in WC3. As far as I can tell, other than the Warden(s), Demoness and Sentry, there are no really good HUMANOID female models for other roles like melee or otherwise (such as that Sophitia skin I posted a few weeks ago...had to make her an ARCHER of all things <: ). If I had the tools (and help), I would definitely try to create a model for a REAL harem dancer girl (with a lot of spinning in her step type animations, baggy pantaloons and that long braid the Poser model has)...alas, I can't do that alone yet.

The ROC Warden/Assassin (non-hero Warden) was my first choice actually when I was initially skinning this character. I'm not really sure WHY I switched, but I'm having a feeling now that I shouldn't have. It probably might be worth trying, as I have worked with that model before (it's NOT a symmetrical model, like most of them in WC3)...

...for the hell of it, this was a very early version of the 'Demon Magess' skin that made it into the anniversary editions of DOTA, and I did play with editing the cloak into something else (here, a pair of simple 'wings'):

Early Demon Magess

The hood, of course, would need some sort of model or heavy skin edit to look like hair...the ROC Warden does have hair, but removing the hood via alpha channels reveals it doesn't cover the back of her head (she has no back of head then <: )

The Sentry...she's okay, but that helmet is a real pain to skin into hair IMO. Then again, the Demoness' head is very helmet like too in shape if you look closely. Still, also might be worth a try.

For the current (version 1) skin, actually, the 'feedback' I got at TWC during design of TfG was for her to be 'pale', which accounts for the too bright skin tone. Seriously, if she's a 'Dancer of the Sands', she's from a desert environment and I think should be quite TAN, but that's just my opinion.

The gold trims...I'll definitely try to make those better. They indeed should be more armor-ish in design and I want to improve them. ;)

The mask (which is really supposed to be a veil like the Poser/drawing show...again, need model editing help to do something like that though)...your suggestions are great. The nose particularly is something I didn't like how it came out, particularly on the portrait (hard to see even both above and below the veil). Again, will work on it [if I don't scrap the chosen model that is].

Yeah, the stomach sucks in general...it's too polygon-y on this model to do much with beyond what I've done.

The top of her outfit, that's another area I plan to work on more. I was shooting for the crossed strips image the Poser shows clearly and it came out like that once applied. I know how to fix it though for the next attempt, moving the 'crossed' spot lower on her chest and the top parts of the strips out more toward her shoulders. Shouldn't be too rough to implement...

I definitely would not disregard any advice (especially yours :) ) on this skin...I need all the help I can get to improve it. ^^ Think I should start over on another model (ROC Warden or Sentry I assume) or just try to fix this one up at this point? Any other suggested fixes?

Much thanx for the feedback, and again let me compliment you Jacinthe on your skins highly again (I adore Jean's and that 'Fates' one using the Naga Sea Witch's model, not in TOB yet). ;)

Psy D
(P.S. Eh, does the TOB team need a hero idea replacement for the Warden in that, btw? I've noticed some remarks along that line on the boards [eh, I'm afraid to post there, kinda ;) ] and have a 'NightShade' character idea and skin in mind, which I could work on as well)

I didn't expect that. =) Thank you for the compliments; it's rare when folks involved in the DotA community are friendly towards the ToB community. You seem like a very decent person and skinner, and I'd love to swap critiques in the future. About posting on our forums - you're right... you'd probably be received negatively, at least by some. I'm a mod there, however, so I can keep the rabid kids off if you'd like some honest input, and you value the opinions you'd receive there.

Lemme say a little about your updated skin:

I like the changes you made, for the most part. The material clothing her looks much more unique, now. I think the highlights on the leggings could use a bit of cleaning so they are a little bit less "frantic" seeming, but it may very well be that the model just isn't accomodating in that area, and it can't be cleaned up very well. I haven't skinned a complete Demoness model yet (if you've seen my ice sentry skin, I started that on the Demoness before I realized she was really fugly - especially the hair), so I'm not aware of the quirks of the model.

The one part that you changed that I'm not as fond of is the darkened areas of skin adjacent to the gold trim, namely at the waist/belt. That is extremely dark, unless the gold bits are very tight on her and pinching her skin so it bulges out over them and creates a dark shadow. If we assume the lighting is coming from somewhat above her, it's my opinion that the shadows above the trim (since I think the gold protrudes a little bit) should be somewhat fine and delicate, whereas ones below protrusions (like her cleavage) are appropriately dark; you already did a good job, there. The shadows on the feet look right, as well, to me.

The shading you added to her face has already improved it a lot, in my eyes.

Amen, friend! I've determined that in the very near future I will be doing some rather challenging exercises in 3DSMax in the hopes that I get the hang of it and can make myself some real female models for WC3...

Aye. =) The assassin is the very first model I skinned, as an archangel (so cliche!), and my second version of her also had wings. I very much enjoyed the fact that she was asymmetrical, even though it was my first skin - how much more I appreciate it now that I realize it's so rare.

In one way, I agree with them. I've always enjoyed pale-skinned heroes (as do many people), and it would definitely add to her delicate, delicious look, but I totally agree with you - a desert dancer is simply going to have a rich and dark tan. I think she'd even be very fascinating with deep bronze skin and sun-bleached hair, or extremely dark brown hair, and the filmy clothing she's wearing a paler shade of blue (like sky blue).

I don't know, for certain. If it were up to me I'd scrap her and work on the assassin, but then again I haven't put hours of work into the current skin like you have. It might be easier for you to continue polishing this one; after all, I keep having to remind myself that nobody can see all the detail we put on the skin in-game anyway, nor can they see how horrifically deformed some of the models are. ;P In the end it's very much up to you, but my own tastes lean towards trying a generally "prettier" model for such a pretty concept.

That's still to be seen. For some time now, ideas have been in the works to revamp the Warden's abilities - though I flatly refuse to skin her because she's such a witch! - so chances are she won't be replaced, yet. However, I'm not a part of the process in deciding what to do about the heroes and their skills - all I do is offer my skins, which the creators can accept or reject as best fits the map and concept.

The only thing I can suggest is posting your hero idea and asking for some lively discussion on our Heroes forum, to see if your idea is noticed and approved of.

Looking forward to seeing what you do with this skin, and your future ones. =)

First off, here's version 3, with a bunch of touch-ups here and there and and a top more akin to the concept work I did for this character (symmetry does NOT help here), plus the suggested edits:

Dancer skin, variation 3

*smiles*

Jacinthe: I'm not one of those types of 'fanatics' that only stick with one map/clique, putting down all others. ^^ I like DOTA, and I like TOB just the same. Each has its ups and downs and I accept them for the work put into them and the fun they provide. I just 'hang out' around the DOTA boards more due to having more 'material' actually involved there (namely, this character...when you design an original char [not even for WC3 I mean] and it gets 'accepted' as a hero design in a map, you care to keep an eye on how it develops, hoping the original concepts aren't removed [have to admit: half of the Dancer's original char elements are gone in the TfG version, but there always has to be some cuts] and trying to help it along [aka this skin]...besides, what WC3 model even remotely could resemble a 'Harem Dancer' on it own? ;) ). Otherwise, I do skins...for the skinning aspect of it. ^^ Not to show off, not to pull a 'mine is better than yours' routine...just for the fun and work of it.

I would indeed like to get feedback from several sources, including the TOB Hero idea board, as I see a lot of cool skins manifesting there (including yours, of course ;) ). The, erm, 'war-ish' posts on both maps' forums last night really makes me hesitant tho, even if all I'm doing is looking for my own feedback as a skinner. Still would very much like to try...

On this version, I think I got most of your suggestions in...keep 'em coming, of course. ^^

3DSMax...hm, I have 3DSMax 4, just haven't found the time to learn it yet...but will try. ;)

Regarding the ROC Warden/Assassin, I might be considering switching to her, perhaps for my OWN version (both for fun and for future use) of this character if Eul over at TfG wouldn't want to change the models (not sure if I'd go pale and dark blue outfit or tanned and light blue tho). Most likely would look a lot better as it's definitely not as deformed as the Demoness' body. And yes, I saw that archangel skin...delightful. ^^

And on the TOB Warden, hm, maybe I'll give it a shot (a whole hero concept or two, possibly a skin...tho this would also matter on the flame factor <: )

Anyway, much thanx for the feedback so far and I'd enjoy sharing critiques as well. Any (or anyone with) more suggestions to improve this one? Keep 'em coming. ;)

Psy D