Revive the classics

This might be in the wrong place sorry >.<

I dont mean hero arena classics I mean starcraft classics. Diplomacy! Warcraft 3 diplomacy SUCK. Yet I cant do better and do not mean any offending. I just think that we have the better editor yet we cant make a better map. If you still play starcraft and you played there diplomacy. WHY NOT MAKE IT LIKE THAT. We have so much tools we can even make a better 1!

Well the diplo if you havent played sc diplo. Is that you can pick from 24 countrys. From a little tiny corner where it has items of the names of the countrys. You pick 1 and it gives you a place that the country is located. You can get cities and capitals Capitals give you special units. You can make a trigger that if you own this what ever it changes this unit into something else. Like a footman. If you get a capital of the country that has a better footman it changes that footman into that countrys footman. Like it upgrades.

Probably because nobody can be bothered putting that much work into a map. I'm slowly building up stuff to make a good Diplo map, but it takes time.

the problem wiht large-scale diplomatic games is that WC3's 3d engine isn't designed to render all that crap. Sure we could do a map like the SC ones, but it would kill your computer after playing for any decent amount of time. WC3 was built and desgined from the ground up to have relatively small numbers of units in a game and it's not feasible to go against the grain.

There are diplo maps out there where u can get large numbers of units and it dosnt lag much, u just need to scale them correctly and have sensible limits (usually about 100 units per player is fine) Its just WCIII hasnt been around as long as SC, and many people are put off by its editor (more complecated, but more customisables) so custom maps tend to be 10 minite noob jobs

First of all, scaling units smaller doesn't do very much. The same number of poylgons are rendered. I never have any siginificant video lag trouble with WC3, but not everyone has a rig like yours or mine.

On top of that, unit pathing and basic AI takes up a fair amount of CPU cycles. If you ever notice your units acting weird when there's lots of stuff going on, its because the game doesn't have enough resources to handle unit pathing.

Then you've got to factor in loading time. Large maps, large numbers of different units and abilities all add up. In a game with 8 players its a good bet that one of them has a tin can for a computer and will take upwards of 7 minutes to load the game.

It isn't just an issue of processing power. The interface itself also poses problems. Being able select only 12 units at a time makes it a chore to send off any number of troops.

Ok, i just spent about 7 hours playing Diplomacy to gauge the average comp of people who play that kind of map on Bnet. At a 150 unit max for all players, full houce (8 ppl) and unlimited buildings. Usually there was about 800 units on the map at any one time, AND the camera was zoomed out more than normal PLUS the unit had really low collision. Out of 6 games, we got lag ONCE from ONE person. 1:48 ratio that one (43 if u dont count me all 6 times) ovbiously you cant take that perfectly seriously, as its only 1 lot of testing, but from past experiance i can safely say that that ratio isnt far off.

The reason ppl havnt made Diplo maps is NOT because the engine cant handle it, they've made Golems maps (which lag the hell out of everyone) and Tower Defence maps (which often spawn TONS of units)

The reason is perfectly simple, and i nailed it above:
Occasionally of course u see maps where somones actually taken alot of time, and even more occasionally you see maps where somones taken alot of time that actually play nicely.

... Network lag isn't the problem. The netcode does a surprisingly good job of syncing the movements of lots of units.

And you still haven't addressed my point that not everyone has a decent computer.

I've been wanting to do a large scale strategic map for a very long time but I'm just put off by performance issues. Even my legionnaires map (10players x 3 legions x 12 units per legion) has issues when everything gets stuck in and spells and abilities are flying every which way.

In my case, it happens mostly because of the pathing calculations (which use some complicated cell-pathing system)



My point is that its not really feasible to spend so much time working on a map only to have all your hard work go to waste because the engine cannot handle teh crap you are putting it through. Far betetr to work on one mastercraft RPG or even AoS than waste your time working on something the game isnt designed to handle.

Well, I don't really know how diplomacy maps actually look like, but couldn't you just simplify things and say that each unit actually represents a whole battalion/legion... Just remember Civilisation.

Anyway, I partially agree with both of you. There are things that WC3 engine simply wasn't meant to do, but there also hasn't been enough time yet for some bigger things to develop. OK, sure, two years is a lot, but if you look at the one year that has gone by since the Frozen Throne was released (and the improoved editor introduced), then you see that there is still time. With the projects under development like Project Revolution, you can see we are getting somewhere, it just takes more time.

You know what Starcraft maps should be remade?

Those VS maps.

Humans VS Bugs! Mario VS Pokemon! You build spawn buildings, then send the units to a center location, and once you place 20 of footman(20) in that area, you get Uberfootman(5), of which you need 5 in that location, which will get you Arthas(3), and once you get 3 Arthas's... etc. etc. etc.

Good times.

What about Siege of Normandy? In my opinion, one of the best maps ever made.

Can't say I ever played it. But those VS maps were great. They were easily accesable, fun for players of all age and experience... the idea was very innovative, yet so... simple.

Try and find it on battle.net. once in a while, someone will play it.

If it was remade it'd be HUGE and instead of just getting the beach, you could expand the map to go deeper into france, Blowing up tanks, driving ammo trucks. If i had a modeling program i'd be making the map already.

Hadn't I seen a few Tanks models at wc3sear.ch already?

I have thought about making a War3 version of that, but most of those were unit massing, and War3 just can't handle it. If, however, I can find enough ideas for units, and still have it be fun enough without hundreds of units, I'll do it... Maybe you can jot down some ideas and send em to me.

Your talking about the mass attacks maps. Where units spawn, and you use a beacon to send them all to the same location. Once you get so many kills, new units spawn. Well, there is a golems map out there somewhere, but nobody has really put the time into making a mass attacks map, and I dunno why, its extremely easy.

A diplomacy map would be incredible, I haven't seen one on Wc3. Its most likely because nobody feels like putting in the effort anymore. In starcraft, this whole idea was new, and people actually put the time and effort in. In Warcraft III, 95% of all maps never finish being made, and 90% of those don't get much time put into them. That means that over 99% of all maps don't get too much put into them, a lot less than should be. Its only once in a good while that someone starts a good project and ever finishes it. Thats probably why a diplomacy map hasn't been made yet, nobody will put in the time and effort to complete the map. Pheonix, if you could possibly make a Diplomacy type map.. you'd be the first.