How can AMAI team game better?

It strikes me that team play is the biggest chink in AMAI's armour, the one area it has fallen behind the Blizzard AI in.

But why? AMAI is smarter, so why is it such a poor team player? I can see it isn't as good, but I'm not always sure why. I'd like this topic to be a means of discovering the problems so that they can be rectified. Blizzard, while better at team games, is a boring and predictable foe.

The first and most obvious problem is the fact that the AMAI forces rarely move together. They should be stuck together like glue, except for when creeping, or when launching an early raid (or any small raid on undefended areas). All too often it's possible to destroy one army, then the next, then the next, as they turn up one by one.

Secondly, they're too prone to abandoning a bases defence. If you lose an ally, you lose the game, yet all too often they'll teleport in, then either run immediatley, or run after just a few loses.

Thirdly, there's no force co-ordination. If AMAI 1 is going mass Huntresses, then AMAI 2 should be providing the ranged forces. They should each counter one of the enemy forces (I don't know who and why they choose to counter).

Fourthly, when retreating they always retreat to their base, never their allies. Unless you're undead in need of healing, why is this? Far better to gather at the foremost allies base ready for the next assault.

Fifthly, it's too easy to nail the heroes. Because AMAI isn't putting a lot of pressure on your heroes (unlike Blizzard who goes mostly for heroes) you can outnumber each enemy hero in turn and take them down. In a 1v1 they can dance and doge and nail your force, but in 2v2 ot greater it's much easier to surround and eliminate a hero.

Sixthly, they're far too slow to attack. You have several armies, and you'll be facing the same size base as you would in a 1v1. You can afford to be aggressive. When playing with my partners in a 3v3 we can sadly always beat AMAI simply by going with a quick, aggressive rush.

I'd like to see what more experienced team players than myself think.

Disagree.

May be AMAI teammates need even more synchronization. May be... If there is anything left to improve.
AMAI team worked on it already. IMHO it was a very good work.

That is.

Nice thought. Now I dream of it.

You are right.

I doubt it depends on AMAI.

Honestly, I don't understand what you want to say.
AMAI in teamplay rushes rather often. Even together.
Defense from early rushes rather good too. When I play AMAI often comes to assist. More about defense you have told in second item already.

Interesting discussion. :8

Speaking as someone who plays 3v3 over and over again (humans vs. AI) I can safely say it is much easier to beat AMAI in team games than Blizzard AI. This isn't true 1v1, but it certainly is true in team games. I suspect you just haven't played the Blizzard AI in a team game recently.

My belief is that it's probably too easy to pick off the AIs one at a time, but I bring up the discussion because I'm not 100% sure why AMAI is easier.

Hello? Are there any plans to improve this? I don't know what this other guy is playing, but as someone who plays countless humans v AI 2v2 and 3v3, I can safely say that Blizzard is just harder to beat in team games. Period.

hmm i will hope to improve team play at some point. Although i not risking changing anything with it until i know my current updates are working correctly, not causing any new problems and researching if changes affects team based play at all indirectly for either better or worse.

I agree that AMAI seems to be easier to beat in team games than Blizzard AIs.

This can kind of be seen when I watch my friend play - he likes to challenge himself and his blademaster skills by playing 1 v multiple comps. When he play against multiple AMAIs he wins more easily (and more often) and in quicker time than if he plays against blizzard AI. The teamwork aspect of the AMAI does need working on I reckon, based on this observation.

@All: Well it's going to be a balancing act between making AMAI competitive in single player games and then make AMAI behave differently in team games. I remember AIAndy or Zal saying that what makes Blizz AI perform well in team games, is that all CPU players have the same behavior. If one CPU team attacks, the rest of the CPU teams will do the same. So I think one way to make AMAI competitive in team play is to have a "One Brain for all teams" implementation of the AI. It's like teams of human with "Shared Unit Control", and only one player controls all teams (except that the CPU will "click faster" and "think faster").

As I said, in team games people don't play as individuals, they play as a team. In other words, just that, a one brain strategy. You don't build a mix of units to make a good army, you build units that contribute to the team army and lead to a good team army.

The only time you might split up is to creep, or launch a small raid or distraction.

Blizzard is better in a team, but it's so bloody predictable, and it lets you get away with tech strats no human ever would!

@Quitch: I really look forward to that. Imagine a Bloodlusted, Unholy Frenzied, Inner Fired, Roared Goblin Alchemist using Chemical Rage and under the influence of Unholy Aura, Endurance Aura, War Drums Aura, and Command Aura, while equipped with 2 Gloves of Haste, 1 Claws of Attack +15, 1 Mask of Death, 1 Crown of Kings, and a TP Scroll -- It's one great cool efficient killing machine!

[quote=Quitch]As I said, in team games people don't play as individuals, they play as a team. In other words, just that, a one brain strategy. You don't build a mix of units to make a good army, you build units that contribute to the team army and lead to a good team army.

The only time you might split up is to creep, or launch a small raid or distraction.
[quote]


So true....my friends and I are ranked about 80th on Azeroth on 4v4....I play as NE and have never played solo again after 3 disheartening losses....but the only reason why I seem to play well in a team - often getting highest scores etc is because my teammates build meat shields, and I build the ranged units and the real damagers - chimaeras. (Let's be honest....you never see chims in solo games, but you do see them in team games, because there is team support to allow the NE player to get to them).

One of my friend plays orc and takes the TC to support the melee units, and I take PotM to support all ranged units with auras etc....and the other two teammates gain from that cause they play as undead and human respectively.....we each contribute the "best of each race" as such to win....we played against the 4th or 5th ranked 4v4 team on Azeroth and they did not have NE....and they claimed our strat was gay - cause my teammates protected me while I teched hard to tier 3 for the chims.

Team games require team efforts rather than solo work. Team games, I guess to summon up my experiences, is about working together and contributing the best of what each race has to offer to counter the enemies' strategies. In my case, I contributed the aerial siege weapons (and my undead friend contributed what could possibly be argued as the best aa - fiends with web!).

Getting back to Tez a bit late, in topics past I posted replays of my girlfriend, brother and I giving AMAI a good spanking on Demon Crossing, then proceeding to play Blizzard and getting our butt handed to us. Sure, we came back to win after some practice, but we always find Blizzard that bit harder to beat. Against AMAI we have often made a mess of the first attack, yet still come back to win. We rarely get away with that against Blizzard (or it's harder at any rate).

We've had to take to adding in an Insane opponent to challenge us now since both Blizzard and AMAI are far too easy to beat in team games. The former because they don't work together, and the later because once we find a tactic that works we can use it time and time again.

If you check back on the topic I posted the replays in (I was the thread starter IIRC) you'd see that as individuals, we're not very good players, it's just that against AMAI we take them overwhelm them, one by one, often running right by their army to surround their hero who doesn't realise the danger until too late. Far too often the allies teleport in to help, then immediately run away, or lose two units and leg it. Here we see another problem, they make retreat decisions as individuals. Often we'll sacrifice a whole players force if it nails one of their bases because the second it becomes 3v2 it's gg. Not to mention that because we're in their base by the time they reach us we'll have rebuilt the hero and their army.

Once we came up against Blizzard we tried the same rush and surround hero start, which failed miserably because they went at our heroes, but more importantly, because we would encounter all of them at almost the same time. If we found one, the other two were always close and surrounding a hero was almost impossible because they had so many troops there.

We're not very good players, but like in any team game, it's not the individual skill that wins the game, it's the team that coordinates better (as anyone who plays random 2v2 knows ;))

Amai as we know its all about designing strategy, I made some changes and some new strategy in amai using strategy editor in AMAI DE version, its really improve amai in team game alot better.

In standard amai, its too many strategy, and its often in team those strategy just dont work together well. I made only 2 strategy per race , those 2 strategy cover the best on their air units as well as their ground units.

And I played on 4 vs 4 , wow, its great. the AMAI is hard to beat. I'll submit my compiled amai_tft.exe with those strats if u want to try sometimes.

I would greatly look forward to having a look at them.

The problem with amai in team games is that they dont have one team act as leader, so sometimes they were like confused and dont know what todo, whether they should attack or expand or defend etc.. a good strat little bit helping but not quite much tho.

AMAI just needs to choose one AI on each team to order the rest of the team around. That would be a beginning.