Talent Tree Footies

I recently made a footman frenzy type map, I had planned to simply beta on battle.net, but it seems I am incapable of hosting maps...

So Ill just post it here and get feedback from the forums.
--
Info:
12 players
AI compatable
Barracks has +3 armor aura, health regen aura, all upgrades and revives heros.
2 Covert Units:
Spy Permanently Invisible. can Reveal, and Noxious Bomb(Disables Tower Attacks)
Rifleman Permanently Invisible. can detect Invisible units. Is the only unit that can attack Spies, and can only attack Spies.
4 types of towers: (only one available at any time per player)
Scout No Attack. Only tower that can see invisible units
Guard Quick Firing.
Cannon Slow Firing. Splash
Arcane Super Fast Firing. Feedback.
8 different types of upgrades: (each with 20 levels, can only get 30)
Attack Damage. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases damage by 1 and damage dice by 1
Armor. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases armor by 2
Attack Speed. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases attack speed by 15%
Health. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases health by 10
Critical Chance. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases chance to do 2x damage by 4%
Dodge Chance. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases chance to dodge by 4%
Masonery. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases building armor by 1 and building health by 5%
Spawn Number. 600g cost, 300g increment
each level increases footman spawned by 1
Currently 4 heros (more planned)
Center has 4 shops (2 types), and a health/mana regen 'fountain'
Bounties 5 gold per footman, 20 gold per Spy and Hero, 10 Gold per Rifleman
Footies starts with 100 hp, 2 attack speed, 2 armor, 8 +1d2 damage
--

Each upgrade adds a graphic effect to footmen allowing ease in determining what type of footmen your opponents are upgrading
Each player gets 30 'Farms' nestled on the cliffs between each teams area. they are invisible. (They do not add food) Every time you upgrade one farm is removed.
Spies can reveal that territory as a way to determine how far your opponents have upgraded.

thats about it. Here is the map please let me know what you think.

EDIT:
Current Hero's:
Fire hero:
1) Lava Spawn. (summon water elemental based) 2 Summons per lvl -
50 Damage, 150 AOE when spawned and on death
200 health, 4 -14 dmg, 1 armor, 30seconds
2) Burning Wave. (beath of fire based)
lvl1 - 50 init dmg, 10 per sec, 5 sec, 250 max, 150 AOE
lvl2 - 75 init dmg, 20 per sec, 5 sec, 375 max, 150 AOE
lvl3 - 125 init dmg, 30 per sec, 5 sec, 625 max, 150 AOE
3) Fel of Flame (infernal based)
lvl1 - 90 init dmg, 6 minor fireballs 3 Dmg each, 250 AOE
lvl2 - 120 init dmg, 7 minor fireballs 3 Dmg each, 250 AOE
lvl3 - 160 init dmg, 8 minor fireballs 3 Dmg each, 250 AOE
4) Fire Storm (locust based)
5 burning sprites, 650 range, for 30 seconds
each sprite:
5 fireballs per second 3 dmg each
2 Artillery fireballs per second 24- 26 dmg each

Lightning hero:
1) Lightning Shield. (thorns aura based)
lvl1 - 4 dmg return, self only
lvl2 - 6 dmg return, self only
lvl3 - 8 dmg return, self only
2) Forked Lightning.
lvl1 - 50 init dmg, 3 targets, 150 AOE
lvl2 - 75 init dmg, 4 targets, 150 AOE
lvl3 - 125 init dmg, 5 targets, 150 AOE
3) Lightning Strike. (rain of chaos based)
lvl1 - 6 bolts within 200 AOE every 0.25 of a second, 35 dmg, 130 AOE each
lvl1 - 12 bolts within 200 AOE every 0.25 of a second, 35 dmg, 130 AOE each
lvl1 - 20 bolts within 200 AOE every 0.25 of a second, 35 dmg, 130 AOE each
4) Imbued Thorium Lightning Rod. (summon water elemental based)
1, 3 stage ward, 600 range.
1 stage: 20 dmg projectile every 0.35 sec for 5 seconds
2 stage: 20 dmg projectile every 0.35 sec for 5 seconds, 30 dmg projectile every 0.65 sec for 5 seconds
2 stage: 20 dmg projectile every 0.35 sec for 5 seconds, 30 dmg projectile every 0.65 sec for 5 seconds, 50 dmg arc every 0.85 sec for 5 seconds, 100 dmg, 300 AOE on death; and 50 dmg, 600 AOE on death

Earth hero:
1) Earth Travel. (bear form based) (Flying for no collision)
lvl1 - invisible, +15 speed, no attack
lvl2 - invisible, +25 speed, no attack, Solid Ground
lvl3 - invisible, +155 speed, no attack, Solid Ground
2) Stone Burst. (fan of knives based)
lvl1 - 65 init dmg, 2 targets, 130 max, 400 AOE
lvl2 - 95 init dmg, 3 targets, 285 max, 450 AOE
lvl3 - 150 init dmg, 4 targets, 600 max, 475 AOE
3) Earth Bomb. (feral spirit based)
lvl1 - 4 bombs, 45 dmg 256 AOE
lvl2 - 10 bombs, 45 dmg 256 AOE
lvl3 - 22 bombs, 45 dmg 256 AOE
4) Earth Spawns. (rain of chaos based) 8 summons withing 400 AOE -
25 Damage, 140 AOE when spawned
300 health, 39 - 49 dmg, 10 armor, 60 seconds

Water hero:
1) Watery Skys. (earth quake based)
lvl1 - 25% slow over 900 AOE enemies only
lvl2 - 30% slow over 1100 AOE enemies only
lvl3 - 35% slow over 1300 AOE enemies only
2) Crushing Wave. (crushing wave based)
lvl1 - 50 init dmg, 250 max, 100 AOE
lvl2 - 75 init dmg, 375 max, 100 AOE
lvl3 - 125 init dmg, 625 max, 100 AOE
3) Frost explosion. (infernal based)
lvl1 - 25 init dmg 250 AOE, 2 sec stun, 2 frostballs 15 Dmg each every second, 2 major frostballs 30 Dmg each every 2 seconds, 400 range, 5 seconds
lvl2 - 25 init dmg 250 AOE, 2 sec stun, 2 frostballs 15 Dmg each every second, 2 major frostballs 30 Dmg each every 2 seconds, 400 range, 10 seconds
lvl3 - 25 init dmg 250 AOE, 2 sec stun, 2 frostballs 15 Dmg each every second, 2 major frostballs 30 Dmg each every 2 seconds, 400 range, 15 seconds
4) Earth Spawns. (rain of chaos based) 8 summons -
Casts Frost explosion 6 times over half a second within 500 AOE

I very much suggest getting some people who can host. This map needs testing...
"Attack Speed. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases attack speed by 15%
Health. 100g cost, 10g increment
each level increases health by 10"
This sounds horribly unbalanced. The first is WAY too powerful, the second, very weak.

Umm thats why Im posting here. I can't host and I know noone in rl who can. so Im posting here so the good forum can host and beta. Any suggestion on balance issues are very welcome.

I posted about balancing issues. The attack speed and health upgrades are extremely unbalanced...

k thnx.
You have any suggestions on how much I should change them?
I was thinking speed 10% health 15?

First I need to know what is the average Health of the units. And attack speed should probably be at about 5% (seeing as how all of your upgrades are very minimal (ie damage +1)).

Doh! I knew I was forgeting somthing in the info
the Footies get a starting health of 100. also their starting damage is 8 +1d2, starting armor 2, and starting attack speed is 2

Just outta curiousity, have you actualy played the map? I am a bit anxious to know what you all think...

EDIT: updated above Info to include footies start stats.

20 levels on evasion upgrade gives you 80% evasion, 20 levels on armour upgrade gives you 40 bonus armour. Each point of armour increases effective damage capacity by 6%, so a level 20 upgrade means 240% bonus hp, so a 3.4 combat efficiency multiplier. 80% evasion means only every fifth attack gets through, so that's a 5.0 combat efficiency multiplier. Evasion only gets to such a high bonus in the higher levels, at level 12 (which is half the gold cost of level 20), with a 52% hit chance (48% miss), this only yields a 1.92 c.e.m., as opposed to 2.32 c.e.m. received from level 12 armour upgrade. Together, that's 1.92 x 2.32 = 4.45 c.e.m. for the same gold cost and a larger farm cost than a single lvl 20 upgrade. At level 1, the difference is 1.04 to 1.12 in favour of the armour upgrade.

So, the armour only beats evasion at start, but in the long run, evasion is stronger. However, it's not that much more stronger than a mix of armour and evasion, so the armour could still be a viable choice because of it's early game advantage, but definitely not worth maxing out. So far, so good.

Edit: if footies have some starting armour, then the armour upgrade is slightly worse than these calculations show.

The attack speed bonus is quite straightforward, it increases it's c.e.m. by 0.15 each level. As previously calculated, armour increases it by 0.12, so attack speed is clearly better at all times. At level 20, it increases attack speed by 300%, which means a 4.0 c.e.m. Not quite as good as evasion, but if we consider the early game advantage, it's probably better. Let's have a look at another mixed scenario: level 12 armour and attack speed upgrades. c.e.m. for lvl12 armour is 2.32, while for attack speed it's 2.8. 2.32 x 2.8 = 6.5, a new record.

Even though attack speed upgrade is better than armour, it pays off to alterate between the two because of the synergistic effect and because the gold cost of the upgrades increases with level. The ideal mix would probably require a slightly higher level in attack speed.

Critical chance. Worst. Upgrade. Ever. Even with a 100% critical, which can never be attained with these upgrades, you would only get a 2.0 c.e.m. Disastrous. In order to balance it, it would have to deal something like 5 times normal damage (4.0 c.e.m. at 80% - level 20). The skill is also iffy, it doesn't work on buildings and can loose a lot of it's effect to overkill. It's only positive side is finishing off units under the effect of regeneration aura.

The masonry upgrade doesn't seem too good. It gives a 4.4 c.e.m. at level 20... to a single tower only. It also has no other upgrades to combine with (the combat efficiency multipliers are best when you multiply them). The effect of the upgrade itself is a multiplication already (hp + armour), so you get the most out of it at higher levels, level 1 gives your tower only a 1.11 c.e.m.

I can't really comment on hp and damage bonus, because I don't know what base hp, damage and sides per damage die your footies have, but the bonus hp upgrade really looks lame, unless your footies have like 50 base hp. A lvl 20 hp upgrade gives you 200 bonus hp, if your footy has the default 420 base hp, that is less than 50% bonush hp from a level 20 upgrade, that would be a c.e.m. of less than 1.5. Remember when I said how disastrous the critical upgrade is? This would be worse. However, don't make it too strong, bonus hp can resist spell damage, something armour doesn't help against.

Edit: I see footies have 100 hp, that means a level 20 hp upgrade at 10hp/upgrade gives a c.e.m. of 3.0. Sounds reasonable, because of the before mentioned advantage bonus hp has over armour (it could also be a disatvantage, though, if there are more healing spells than damaging spells in the map; spells that heal hp by percent don't count, though, because for them, it doesn't matter if the unit is a high-hp-low-armour or low-hp-high-armour).

As for the damage, base is 9.5 (each die gives either 1 or 2, that's an average of 1.5), let's round that up to 10 for easier computing, and it goes up 2.5 per upgrade (1 damage + 1 die = 1 + 1.5 damage). That's a c.e.m. of 1.25 at level 1! Our previous record was 1.15 with attack speed upgrade, but this is insane. A level 20 upgrade to damage would give you a 6.0 c.e.m.! A combination of level 12 attack speed and level 12 damage tops that, it gives us a c.e.m. of 11.2! Damage needs a nerf badly.

Sweet!
That was most helpful Anitarf. You get rep.
I already Edited the above info but the start footie stats are:
100 hp, 2 attack speed, 2 armor, 8 +1d2 damage

maxed out stats:
300 hp, ?? attack speed, 42 armor, ~40-70 damage

Critical strike:
ok, Ill increase multiplier, 5x seems good. 5 times ~ Maxed damage is 200-350
just about enough to either kill or mortaly wound a footie.

EDIT: If I add structure to Targets Allowed will it crit on structures too?

Masonry:
Sooo... Should I change health to a set number instead of %? If so what do you think would be a good number? I was thinking 100...

Did you play it? How did you like the Graphic effects on the units? the Heros?

If I played it, do you think I would have time to type all that bunch of theorycraft?

I don't see how upgrade art would be significant, since there are no upgrade-counters, the upgrades simply accumulate, knowing what upgrades the enemy has gives you no reason to alter your strategy.

lol

umm.. If your enemy is gearing his units for damage then you can gear yours for survivability.. I would imagine it would be a good bit of information to have to help you decide how to upgrade your units to better match your opponents.. but I guess thats just me..

The point is that there's no difference between damage and survivability. If you have more damage, it means you can kill your oponents faster, so you also take less damage. If you have more armour, it means you can survive longer, which means you'll also be able to inflict more damage in that time.

The only use I see now is if it's a team game, and one player upgrades armour more while the other one attack damage, it would be advised t first neutralize the damage dealers in combat.

it is 4 teams of 3.
And If you are geared for damage and your opponent is geared for damage then both sides would take high casualties very quickly. If you were to fall back and let a teammate who is geared for survivability fight them then the battle would be prolonged allowing you to remaneuver your damage dealers, and possibly use your hero to put the battle to your advantage.

...

Suggestion - extra footman units spawned don't give enemies gold. Otherwise that 600 gold is just feeding the enemy war machine.

...but so could your opponent.

It doesn't matter if a battle lasts long or short, it lasts the same ammount of time for both sides, so both sides benefit equally. On the level of a single player, it really doesn't matter what upgrades you take, they all increase the combat efficiency, only in different ways. Differenting upgrades only becomes important in a team context.