Hero Defense Map Concept

Hi,

This post is... long. Please, please be patient and take your time to read through the entirety of my post. Thank you. (The font color is to keep you from getting bored )

* I will be mentioning maps that served as inspirations for this concept and they will be highlighted in Red/Orange. I did not make them nor am i affiliated with the makers of those maps.

Before anything else... A little intro...

This is my first post in this forum so please be nice (I felt hostility towards the newer members after reading some of the posts.) I am very young in terms of experience with map making... Nevertheless, I have been able to simulate DoTA's creep spawn (lots of people hate DoTA, i know... nevertheless, it was an accomplishment on my part to have made the creeps spawn and move exactly the way i wanted them) and to mimic the Freezing Field spell (it was, however, non-MUI and it had memory leaks). You see, I wanted to make a map similar to DoTA - a hero-arena or hero-siege or whatever category it falls in. However, I was disheartened after realizing that making another one like it or an improvement of it just would not be worth my time (for reasons i will not ennumerate).

Getting acquainted with other map categories - TDs, RPGs and the more unique minigames - one category that caught my attention was hero defense. After playing xHeroSiege and MooMoo, I was inspired to make one of my own... Something unique (hardly)... Something grand (i wish)... Something that would kill me in the process of making it (i hope not)... Something that would hook the more avid gamers (I'm serious here)... My noob mapmaking skills be damned... (Hahaha i see you getting pissed off at my naivete).

I am about to present you this map in hopes that:

- You will give me advice as to how to go about its creation.
- You will give constructive criticism of its concept.
- You will not discourage me from making it simply because of my lack of experience or because it will take up too much time/effort.
- You will give me advice that isn't laced with sarcasm/disdain/condescending/negative-stuff
- You won't comment on my post's length (I get to post rarely so i make the most of it...).
- If you are 101% sure that this sucks. You should say so.
- And most of all, that you would cheer me on (i am free to hope hehehe)
- I'm not demanding these things... Really... Just hoping for them. No, really.

Here begins my presentation of my map...

As you can see, I did not upload my map nor did I post screenshots. My main reason is that it is not yet very presentable. Any criticism it would recieve would be useless since it is still imbalanced and overall incomplete (the concept i am to present, however, may be commented on fruitfully). I will, however, do my best to present what I intend my map to be comprehensively.

Elementalist Hero Defense Features

Storyline:

- Just a vague sketch...
- Supposedly, there are 8 Elementals responsible for taking care of the world's essence-thingie - the Grand Elemental. Sometime during the course of the Grand Elemental's existence, an evil entity (typical but what the heck) manages to sieze the powers of the 8 Elementals, rendering the Grand Elemental vulnerable to attack. However, the 8 Elementals managed to preserve some of their powers in the Grand Elementals person and manages to call upon a maximum of 8 heroes (hehehehe the number of players playing my map should vary from game to game) to defend the Grand Elemental against the assault of the evil entity until such a time that the Grand Elemental grows strong enough to mount a counter-assault upon the evil entity and its peers.

Objective:

- To defend the Grand Elemental at the center of the map until you exhaust all the waves.
- To ensure that the number of enemy units do not grow too many, else you will fail even though the Grand Elemental is still standing (as to how they are to grow too many, read on).
- Become strong enough to get rid of the evil entity mentioned above.

*This hero defense map has two kinds of monster waves

Monster Wave Type 1:

- 50 waves of enemy creeps, 80/84/4 units each.
- Every 10 waves is a boss wave (4 units)
- 3 waves after every boss wave is accompanied by 4 special creeps (84 units)
- Each wave spawns to the north, south, east and west of the Grand Elemental and converge towards the center of the map (where the Grand Elemental is).
- The next wave will not spawn until the wave before it is completely destroyed.
- A 20 second "break time" for the players after a wave is destroyed.
- Creep abilities would change every level to keep things challenging (i am hoping it will).
- Three waves before the boss level has a theme race (nerubian, centaur, etc.).
- Boss waves should have all the abilities of the last three waves.
- You may notice... this is reminiscent of MooMoo's waves...*
- Units from this wave grants lumber.

Monster Wave type 2:

- A periodic wave.
- 12 units per player spawned periodically.
- Whether they are to have skills or no is undecided.
- The group to be spawned depends on how many waves (type 1) have been destroyed.
- Reminiscent of xHeroSiege's waves...*
- Units from this wave grant gold.
- May only be ended after the 50 waves mentioned above (type 1).

Heroes:

- Only has 6 heroes to choose from at the beginning of the game. (The reason why there are six is that it helps in making themes for the "Elementalists" or heroes)
- After picking a hero, however, you get to choose from 8 elements, granting your hero an extra skill unique to the element you chose.
- Upon reaching a certain level, the heroes will transform depending on which element they choose (similar to Imagica's*).
- Thus you get one of 48 kinds of heroes - 6 per element - by the end of the game.
- Hero skills are based on what their primary attribute is (str, agi, int) and what their element is.

Pet System:

- Concieved in an effort to differentiate my map.
- You purchase stuff to power them up.
- No more details for this.

Elements:

- Each element has a theme much like Element TD.* (The ripped ideas don't stop coming eh?)
- They basically influence what skills your hero will have.
- Cannot be changed once picked.

Items:

- More than likely, i'm going to put in recipes.
- I have to think of something to make my items stand out.

Tower Defense:

- Did you just say, "What?!? TD in a hero defense map? Is you stew-pid?"?
- Well... A friend of mine suggested this after getting pwned by the monsters because "they were too many"
- I am thinking about making this a minigame that runs while playing the main game... Makes the map more... Dynamic? It should also make it slower so... I'm having doubts about it.

Quests:

- I am wondering whether i should insert a few quests in the game other than the primary ones (see objectives). The constant assault on the Grand Elemental might not leave enough time for players to do quests.

The Counter-Assault:

- At the end of the 50 waves, what do you get? A chance to get back at them... The map turns from hero defense, to hero siege.
- I plan to make the map in such a way that there is more than one way of beating the map during the counter-assault.

Misc:

- A presentable terrain...
- I will hopefully be able to make cinematics as a finishing touch.
- I am thinking of allowing the players to save their game progress... but that may be too complicated.

Problems with my Map Concept I Think I May Encounter in the Future:

- A gargantuan effort...
- It may end up being too laggy to be fun at all...
- Map size may be too big.
- It may end up being unappreciated in spite of my efforts.
- I may never finish it at all...

* Though they may be seen as imitations, I am hoping that I will not make imitations, but improvements instead.

Questions I am Asking Myself and Questions You Might Eventually Ask:

Why Am I Making This Map?

- I see mapmaking as a challenge... Something to relieve stress and to forget the rest of the world... (Although mapmaking can be very stressful).

How Am I To Go About Making this Map?

- I am not crazy (I think I am but am convincing myself that I am not). This map is doable... It takes time however... Lots of it.
- I plan to do it in phases... Some of those features I have mentioned are tentative (Although some are already partially integrated into the map.)
- I am currently having an ass of a time making trigger-spells T_T Vexorian's spell systems are starting to look really really tempting... (Would it be wrong to just give in and use it?)

Why Am I posting This?

- To blow off some steam... School is getting stressful of late (Sorry for going off-topic).

In Conclusion...

- This map that I am currently working on is a synthesis of ideas i plan to improve upon and of ideas that came from myself. I cannot allow this map to become a mere ripoff of the older hero defense maps, after all the things i have said about making improvements and all that crap.

And here ends my presentation... I will appreciate your comments/suggestions/reactions and maybe even your most violent reactions. Please say something about it that would boost my spirit or help in making it a reality. I am, to be perfectly honest, in a rut and am in need of encouragement. I pray that I would be able to come up with something presentable a month from this post. (Don't worry, I'm done with many of the basic parts such as monster spawns etc. What i am having a hard time doing is balancing the game and thinking up spells.) Hoping to hear from you guys soon.

I'm a big fan of Keeping Things Simple, so for starters I'm going to suggest you drop as much uneccesary gameplay elements as possible. Towers, pets, quests... The game shouldn't try to confuse the players. A simple design doesn't neccesarily mean simple (and boring) gameplay.

However, boredom may come into consideration if the game lasts too long. I think I remember from the few times I've played these sorts of maps that they tend to turn into tedious hours of hero building. Now, I don't know what's the estimated duration of your map, but 50 waves sounds like a lot... Especially since they keep getting reinforced. Obviously, the fix to boredom isn't adding more stuff (which can make the game even longer), but reducing the number of waves. A map that requires 30 minutes to complete (and even less time if you fail) sounds like a lot more fun than a map that lasts 3 hours. Additionaly, fewer waves allows for more uniqueness in wave design. I suggest you take a look at Sheep Guard TD, I think it's a fine example of that.

Otherwise, I think it's a neat idea to combine periodic waves with the... other kind of waves. However, it kind of offsets the balance between healing and damage; if you prevent damage by healing it rather than by killing those who damage you, the enemies start to accumulate, so healing spells would have to be considerably more powerful to maintain balance.

The final offensive move is also a neat idea, it's a sort of a reward in itself for completing all the waves, it just shouldn't be more difficult than the last wave, rather make it easier; that way the chance to go back at the source of the invasion and do some kickass assaulting can be a better ending than any cinematic, even more so with different ways to accomplish it. Just remember, the shorter this part is, the better; if it becomes another streched out spawn killing, it can quickly go from a climax to an anti-climax.

As for the problems:
- A gargantuan effort... - well, that's what you get for being creative; it's both a gift and a curse :)
- It may end up being too laggy to be fun at all... - use fewer, but more powerfull creeps. Seriously, you don't need 80.
- Map size may be too big. - that comes from custom models and skins. You don't need those. Not really.
- It may end up being unappreciated in spite of my efforts. - well, you can never please everybody.
- I may never finish it at all... - it's a risk we all take. Just don't talk about it and maybe it'll go away.

Keep things simple huh? Hmm... Yeah... I suppose what you said does make sense. Those maps i mentioned were actually kinda long (More than 3 hours?). Following their example might not be a very good idea since yeah, the players may get bored or may have to leave simply because the map is taking too long (happened more than once while my friends and I were trying to finish xHeroSiege). However, there may be people who enjoy long maps. Or maybe not. So I'm thinking of taking up your suggestion of making the waves fewer.

With regards to extra gameplay elements (Quests, Pet System and TD), thanks for pointing out the importance of simplicity. I'm going to have to start thinking of a way of integrating them into the map without confusing the players - turn a complexity into simplicity if its possible. (I'm not very keen about the TD bit, but I am keen about the pet system thing.)

I'm glad to hear that the combined waves and the counter-assault thingie is a neat idea Thanks for pointing out that damage-healing balance thing. Will work on it. Also, the "fewer but more powerful creeps" suggestion I have recieved from more than one person now. So I will now have to start thinking about doing just that. Thanks for giving me consolation with regards to the problems thingie too.

hourglasseye: First of all, let me say that I am very happy to see your enthousiasm for mapmaking. You may be inexperienced, but I can see that you care a lot about this, and that matters a lot.

Since I do think you really care, I will share my thoughts about what you said. First of all, I agree strongly with Anitarf - keeping things simple is the best sign of brilliant design. The map needs to have ONE SINGLE MAIN ESSENCE - and if it is a hero defense, then focus on the heroes defending. If you feel like you have to add things, like tower defense, pets, quests and such, doesn't that just mean that deep down you think making "just a hero defense" isn't good enough?

Think about that. You should come to one of two conlutions: 1) You really really honestly want to make a hero defense map, you really think it will be cool without the need of adding a "lots of extra stuff to make it cool", OR 2) It is also possible that you find out that maybe hero defense maps has already been done so much that you dont want to do "yet another".

I am certainly not suggesting you will come to either one of these conlutions, that is entirely up to you - neither is more correct than the other. But maybe you will agree with me that it is very important to spend some time thinking about what you want deep down. As you said, making a map can be a gargantuan effort, and you will fail if you are making the wrong map.

So, do you think you are making the right map? Am I completely wrong when I guess (and I really am GUESSING) that the extra-stuff you are adding is because you don't think "just another hero defense" is enough?

Personally I am making "yet another dota". I have no intentions of adding a whole lot of extra stuff. I am simply going to streamline it and make the general experience a whole lot smoother. If I added tower-defense, quests etc to it, it would become a soup :)

I hope I offered you some ideas, and feel free to tell me where I went wrong in my assumptions. I really wish you good luck in your creative mapping efforts!

Haha. I just replied to your post in your "Sequel to DoTA" thread and then I saw this. Talk about coincidence XD. Now about the things you said...

Umm... It was... interesting. Do you read minds? O_o; Hehehe. Anyway. I'm think about what you said. It was veryyyyy... moving? (can't thing of a better term) Now I am wondering whether it is possible to mix in the extra stuff into a hero defense map without making it soup (If another post suggests me to drop them, I will. Currently, I am thinking of keeping only the pet system now.)

Anyhow, the other thread you started was kind of inspiring. You are respectable in the way that you firmly believe that you can make a map thet would be played as the "standard" for its genre. The difference between you and me, however, is that you have made a map that became an inspiration for other great maps. So, I really cannot be so bold as to say things like "reclaiming the throne" DoTA held of "marketing" it. Nevertheless, I will do my best.

If I was forced to pick one of the two conclusions you offered, I'd go with conclusion 1. Thanks for your suggestions! (So much to learn from this forum o_o;)

Now now, don't be dropping features you have planned based on the number of posts that have different views. Drop features only if those views really convince you.

If you choose 1, then at least you know you want to do it! Thats great. Focus on figuring out what map-elements truly matter to you. You know what, a map with a cool hero and pet system already sounds like a unique map to me. What are your plans for the pets?

A pet is not just any unit, because then you wouldn't call it a pet. But it is not a hero either, because then you would call it a hero. :) What is a pet in your map?

Glad to see someone is interested :) The pets? Well... Each hero gets assigned a pet unit after surviving a number of waves. What pet gets assigned to you depends on the element you chose at the beginning of the game.

You can't control them even if they are your units. They do, however, follow your hero around closely so you don't need to worry about controlling them. They also attack and cast spells automatically. They are also invulnerable but would die/revive whenever your hero does.

Initially, the pets will have only one skill each. By killing monsters from wave-type1, you earn "lumber" with which you may choose to buy new spells for your pets (still thinking of other uses for "lumber"). I am also thinking of boosting pet stats via purchasing but have yet to think of the best way implement such a feature.

I am also thinking of a way to turn the pets into... umm... "portable backpacks". However, I am still thinking of how players can store stuff in them when they can't even select the pets!

Thats about it for what the pets are. I am thinking of letting the pets play roles during cutscenes. You know... make them significant elements in the storyline.

Bravo.
This looks like a well thought out, interesting map, and I hope you finish it. If you want help with anything, send me a PM.
It's so nice to see a beginner mapmaker who actually has a vague idea of how to do things, rather than opening the WE, then coming here and asking dumbassed questions without ever trying to make things for themselves.

Keeping Things Simple is just one possible design approach. While I believe it should be one of the most fundamental design principles, it is by no means the ultimate truth. Even when choosing to follow it, you needn't follow it to the extreme.

If you really want to include pets into the map, then by all means, do. As long as the game has a reasonable learning curve, it's all good. What I meant is you shouldn't have pets and quests and towers and... having just the pets, as long as they contribute considerably to the game, is not bad at all.

Let's discuss the game structure a bit more. You get a pet after a couple of waves, also, your hero gets an upgrade after some time. Both are based on the elemet you chose. When do they happen? Simultaneously, or one by one, if so, which happens first? How does this affect the gameplay experience? I suggest the pet and the hero upgrade have a synergy; for the element that gives you lots of damage spells (I would guess something like lightning), a pet that can cast a banish-like spell and itself have a magic attack, that would be a good combination. Another combo would be drunken haze/breath of fire, and then there are the numerous combos you can do with triggered spells. this is an interesting gameplay element, having to coordinate with your pet.

I would save that for the ending part of the game, give the heroes their upgrade then, and give them the pets shortly after the start. This would give you a nice game structure, where you first have some time to learn the heroes, then you get the pets that give you limited combo possibilities which you learn to take advantage of, and in the end you get the hero upgrade which gives you full pet-combo possibilities, exactly what you need for the last, hardest waves. While this makes sense, it is by no means the only game structure possible, and the most important factor here is how you feel the game should play like.

I suggest that you consider Anitarf's advice yet again, he has some good suggestions on how to nicely structure the gameplay and synergy between hero and pet also sounds like a terrific idea.

Your pet idea certainly seems well thought out and nicely implementable. I think that already is a nice foundation for a nice map, as long as the hero-skills and pet-spells are interesting. :)

To Hyarion: Thanks :P I'll do my best.

To karukef: Doing that You know, the good feedback the pet system is getting is kind of suprising. Initially, I put the pets there for... erm... comic relief. Haha. Eventually, I realized that they may become very useful, so I added it as one of my maps features to see how people would see it.

To Anitarf: Now that is an idea. o_O; Never thought of that before. *ahem* Anyway, to address your question of when the upgrades/powerups happen and which gets upgraded first:

- The players dictate when the pets are to get a new skill. This is simply because the amount of lumber in every game is preset. Currently, you can get as much as 80 lumber (since there are still 80 units per wave. i'm planning to change that) given that you're playing it alone. Sooo... if a pet-spell is, let's say, worth 240 lumber, then it would take a player (playing alone) as little as three waves to get the first spell (assuming that the pets themselves don't cost lumber). So, the number of players determine just how quickly a pet can be given a new skill or a stat-boost.

- On the other hand, the heroes grow stronger with every wave (of type1) that they defeat. Currently, they level up with once with each wave. However, I'm considering lowering the number of waves to something around 30 so I'd have to think of a new pattern of levelling up.

- In the process of writing this reply, I have come to realize that since the monsters are to grow stronger with each wave, and since they are to be given skills, the gap between their strength and the heroes' strength may be said to be balanced.

- This gap, however, would widen upon the heroes' transformation after 1/3 of the total number of waves (i'm thinking after wave ten) where they get a new set of skills. The gap would grow even wider after the pets evolve after 1/2 of the waves (wave 15). Sooo... I'm thinking of making the enemy unit stats grow... exponentially... with each passing wave. Then again, high hp creeps won't really mean challenging ones. So i guess i'll make adjustments to their hps and dmgs depending on what skills they have (a moderate dmg, very high hp, very low def creep with %dmg recieved return and with spell immunity should piss a good number of people off o_o).

- I am also thinking of allowing a second transformation for the heroes after 2/3 of the waves (at wave 20). I'm not planning to give them a new set of skills. Instead... i'm thinking of inserting the pet-hero combo you suggested or something of its like right here. Then again, inserting it too late in the game might... i dunno... not have a very good effect. So maybe i'll add the pet-hero combos right after the pet evolves. Then, after the heroes' second transformation, the more complex combos get added (o_o this is kinda like what you said).

Your advice is, once again, very helpful. The pet-combo suggestion is very sound so i'm thinking of implementing it (the triggers it would require would kill me but what the heck). Still, I have to think of other alternatives to the pet-hero combo idea. There might be other ways to create a (as karukef put it) "synergy" between the Heroes and their pets.