Sequel to DotA needs YOUR help!

Hi!

No, we are not really making a sequel to DotA ;)

If you are unfamiliar with the map I am making, you can skim through this thread if you wish.


My buddy Mosef and I created a map called Valley of Dissent in 2002, which was in fact the original inspiration for DotA, and now, we are working on what I hope to be the third major AoS/DotA-ish map - a continuation in the spirit of both VoD and DotA.

Seeing how many people share my desire to create a the next major AoS map, I thought it would only be fair to offer a part in this project for those that truly believe in it.

I suggest the following 'positions'.

Spell-coder
The map currently uses absolutely no built-in spells. This obviously requires a whole lot of custom spells to be made.

Being a spell-coder on this project will be much like coding JESP-spells. The excellent caster system is in use, and quite a few additional helper functions will also be available, such as functions to Stun, Slow and so on.

I really do think that being a spell-coder for this project will be a rewarding and fun hobby. You will get to see your work in action instantly in a real map environment and you will of course have a lot of creative input about what spells you wish to make.

However, I do have some absolute requirements:

1. You must have a good understanding of Jass. I.e I will not teach you jass.
2. You have to know that you wish to be involved, and remember that this is a project that still has months of alpha-work ahead of it.

Technical Art Director
Who doesn't want to be the Technical Art Director! Wee! Eh... What IS a Technical Art Director? Ok, I just made that up :)

There is one facet of War3 modding in which I lack proficiency, and that is the technical side of custom models. This is also a very important part of the project - I want to have weapons displayed in the hands of heroes based on what they have equipped, I want to have spectacular special effects, I want lots of custom models that add only a minimal filesize and so on.

I can certainly accomplish this. But if you are a veteran of custom models and know all the tricks in the book, you would do this job a whole lot better than me.

This is not a "modelling" position - your tasks will primarily be providing practical informations and ideas. Examples include helping everyone figuring out how to make the coolest looking spells ever, making sure models look good with an attached weapon in hand and many other technical/visual issues.

You can also help out a lot with questions such as "which model should hero/spell/item X use?", to which you could respond by suggesting someone creates it from scratch, finding it from a resource site or even make it yourself if you wish.

I would be extremely happy and count myself very lucky if someone can fill this position. It would improve the quality of the map by a multitude.

Artist
Of course the map needs artists! This is a very laidback position. Anyone can apply if they truly wish to be a part of this project. As an artist you can either contribute any art you wish, asking or suggesting how it can be used in the map, or you can work on requests from others.

It is always inspiring for everyone else to see the great work some people are able to make, so if you want to make art as a part of a team, we would be happy to have you onboard.

The only requirement is that you do not mind constructive critisism and suggestions for improvement on your work.



If any of the above sounds like it would be fun (and really, it will be), send me a PM and introduce yourself. You don't have to promise anything just because you introduce yourself you know, so don't hesitate :)

If you have any questions or comments whatsoever, please post them in this thread. Even if you PM me, please keep questions in this thread if possible, so that others can benefit from the answers.

Finally, anyone that want to contribute ideas and feedback, or just partake in discussions, are more than welcome to register at the development forum. Note that I don't expect many people to use that forum beyond those that actually partake in the project, so I will keep posting progress updates and ideas here on wc3campaigns.

always welcome to download my skins.

But would you PUH-LEEZ stop calling it sequal to dota? it has been discussed endlessly in the other thread, so it really boggles me that you would do it again.

You want minimal custom graphics? Then drop the attachment system. You will need to edit either every skin or every model for your heroes to remove their current weapons.

@Whitehorn: The reason I said I want minimal filesize is because I know how much space the attachment system needs. But having every hero using either a custom skin or a custom model is a great visual bonus.

Indeed. Well in that case, you should maximise the potential and have custom hero skins for them all :)

I will be doing some more attachment models soon, but check out some already done - its easy enough using ingame textures:

- I couldn't agree more!

@Karukef: At first you used the "Sequel to DotA"-title to gain some attention right?.. I think you've gotten that attention now, and it's time to move on to your very own map. You could call it something like "Sequel to VoD", since that would be a quite precise descrition. Reason: You are not completely sure if it's going to be called VoD2, but it is infact your second AoS after VoD, isn't it?

So please, enough with the publicity-hunting. There's not even a reason why you should mention DotA anymore. This is a huge, promising project, and your goal is to become the most popular AoS-map on b.net. The end. Of course, that background story was a great part of why I got interrested in this project. But not the title. I ignored the topic untill I saw that it was under constant discussion so I got too curious ;) And then when I read the introduction I got very interested.

Edit: Guess noone wont even see this edit, but it's not that important... Just wondered, this post is mainly for the ones who want to apply for the VoD2-team right? In that case I'll have to stay out of this topic if the "team" doesn't include testers ;)

same here. I hate current dotas anyway, so a title like "squal to dota" is an immedite turnoff.

It got your attention. QED.

Those pictures are really awesome. I have always wondered why I haven't seen more use of attachments in war3 maps. There is just so much potential in the War3 engine, like your pictures clearly show.

And yeah, there is such an abundance of textures in the mpq's that there is just endless potential for models using them. Even heroes can be made using the ingame textures (such as that awesome ruins golem I saw a couple of weeks ago), and would be a great alternative to only using pre-made models with custom skins.

Also Whitehorn, maybe I can ask you a little question. How easily does shields attach to non-modified models in general? I know weapons work for most units with hands, but I have never tried shields, what is your experience with that?

Really depends what the model's right arm does in the model's animations.

if you consider that ruins golem to be a suited model for a hero, you've allready lost.

So, can I take that as "there will be issues", if I would want to attach shields to all heroes that wishes to equip them? (The ones that doesn't use bows with both hands that is)

@erwtenpeller: Well at least I have no piece of paper that details the particulars of any such ruins golem hero. Yet. ;)

I'd like to say most of your audience won't be drawn in by calling it the sequel to DotA. DotA fans will think it is a crappy rip-off of their amazing map, and non-DotA fans will think it's a crappy rip-off of the map that is the scourge of the earth. Either way, it is lose-lose.

The map looks good, but your desire to keep putting it into the shadow of DotA is worrying.

About attachments - when done well they can be pretty good, but when done badly they look awful. Keep in mind that WoW, with different models for different characters, cannot pull it off perfectly, and it looks quite bad there on occasions, consider if the result you will get will be worth the space and the effort put in.

Well, as long as they use in-game textures, attachment models take up very little space. They're unanimated, with few polygons... So you could almost afford to have multiple versions of each for heroes with considerably different anatomy.

The problems are, of course, the heroes themselves. A fully animated, high poly hero model weights as much as a custom texture; you put a couple in the map and wham, you're at the bnet mapsize limit. Now, you aren't planning to have more than a couple different heroes, so it's not impossible, but together with all the small attachment/special effect models, you're really getting close to the limit, while the optimal bnet map size is considered to be at around a quarter of that limit. Also, even if you get through just below the limit, you won't be able to add a single new custom hero afterwards.

You could use my customization idea to make multiple different heroes with a single model and different head/clothes attachments, so they would all seem different, but use the same set of animations (if you want to be able to attach the same weapons to all of them, you couldn't really have models with dramatically different anatomy/animations). This way, you could make all your heroes with 2-3 big, fully animated models, while everything else would be low filesize: not to mention that the big models could still have animations that only one of the heroes would use, so they wouldn't all feel entirely the same. A problem with this idea might be the portrait models, I'm not sure how those work.

As for not using custom hero models, that gives you other problems. You can still use low-filesize attachments to customize existing models, but the problem is, how many of them have anatomy similar enough to be able to use the same attachment models for equipment. Few units have shields, and even fewer actually use them (only the footmen, captains, liutenenants and spellbreakers do, and I can't remember any other unit that has it besides the Huntress), and from all the other units, few probably animate well with a shield attached to their free arm... or maybe not, who knows, maybe a dryad or a sentry (who both use only one arm to wield their weapon, unlike Paladins or Blademasters) look just fine. On the other hand, there are models like some spellcasters who can't even use a weapon attachment properly.

So, your choices seem quite grim.


Anyway, since this is a team gathering thread, I'll move it to the correct forum.

@Anitarf: Your customization idea based on a few similarly animated heroes that can use a wide variety of equipment is something of the most clever I've heard in a long way. Although, as you point out, it does have it's drawbacks.

Still, that is also way beyond what I have in mind. I seem to have made a big mistake in not pointing out a tiny but essential detail:

I ONLY plan on having weapon attachments. I have been involved in games programming for many years and I know all the difficulties involved in clothes attachment so I wouldn't dream of going there :)

No, just weapons. I asked about shields out of curiousity, but the reason I never experimented with it is because I didn't think enough units would carry them properly.