(6) Heroquest the old mine

Edit:Mine Race 1.6 now availible for download
(Old name version 1.0 :Heroquest; the old mine)

1 vs 4 players (5 players) Full house is best
Short game!

The heroes have been trapped by a cave inn and must escape. The DM player must kill the players with the use of his minions. He will gain more minions as time passes. So be quick!



Edit here are some great screenschots (note: may contain spoilers)
i've also changed the front image to bad i couldn't get it in the minimap loading screen..

A RoC map, eh? Don't see too many of those around these days. We'll test this as soon as we can make time.

Ok thanks Tim.
Some side notes:
-There are 2 secrets in this map also (1 for the DM 1 for a hero).
-This game is largly dependent on wat the DM does in the game. It is however not required that the DM slot is occupied (though it might be too easy then).
Also if you are the DM character don't use the portal or you will not be able to go back to your lair (the DM is however a powerfull hero on it's own). This is to keep the heroes out of the DM's lair.

i'm not able to test it on battlenet with other players due to my network config :(

An interesting map, especialy because it's made for RoC, but that does not excuse it for lacing in some areas.

The terrain could be improved. Most of our heroes died when another hero blocked their way; but this is good! Blocking the enemy and not blocking yorself in the narrow pasageways is a great test of teamwork. The problem is not so much in the functionality of the terrain, but in aesthetics. The terrain could use some touch ups here and there.

A bigger problem was the gameplay: It was a bit too slow. The dungeon master got some units now and then, but too rarely. Unless he went to great lengths to keep them alive, he would loose most of them long before new ones arrived. Of course, giving the DM too many units would offset the balance, so the heroes should gain more experience/receive more potions from the creeps to be able to survive the onslaught.

When we played, the DM left his base; he didn't seem particularly weak, and fought the heroes alongside his units. Doesn't really seem like an evil mastermind when doing so. Perhaps prevent him from participating in combat entirely, or, this seems like an interesting idea, make him start in the dungeon as well, but make him weaker with more support skills like curse and that sort of stuff, turning the gameplay into an intense game of cat and mouse between the heroes and the DM.

The balance is the biggest issue here, and there is no way to get it right other than through lots of testing. You say you can't host, so you should take advantage of various forums to get people to test your map.

I agree completely with Anitarf, I wrote a similar review but it seems my net glitched up and it did not get posted.

I cannot approve this in its current state; and doubt anyone else will. If you would like I can move it to the Map/Campaign Project forum if you wish to continue working on it.

Anitarf covered most of the problems.

I think the concept was quite good; the dungeon master attacked when you were in very difficult situations. You then had to defend yourselves untill you found a better spot to fight. However, there were allmost no good spots to fight. I suggest you add more strategical spots, stuff like high ground, small entrences, bridges etc. for the heroes to use when under attack.

Also, i think Anitarfs suggestion on making the dungeon master a support hero is a good idea.

I also think the heroes could be greatly improved. I felt they had no cohesion (wrong word?): My hero had 5 active skills, mostly aoe damage. Sure this works, he was a wizard after all. I heard another hero had three passives; that only leaves two actives for him to use. In this case, you should move one or two passives from him to the wizard, and some actives to the other hero. You just dont have the mana to use multiple actives, a passive is allways nice to have (or a cheap spell that you dont use very often, such as banish).

Good concept, but you just cant do good enough maps in roc anymore (well, i guess you can but its hard). Unapproved.

banish in roc - no way

Well most people have purchased TFT by now, i assumed he made this map a few years ago.

Great all that feedback thx guys!

list of things need fixing (If i missed something let me know):
A-terrain:
1:aesthetics (same as 2? ) not good
2.Sugesttion:high ground, small entrences, bridges etc. for the heroes to use when attacked by dm.

B-heroes:
1 Sugesttion:abilities improvement (more actives instead of passive for some heroes)

C-Dm player
1:problem:to slow gameplay, to few units


A:terrain
isn't the 2 fountains area a good place too hold out? (mm perhaps the dm units get to heal also at the fountains, can i change that fact?)
I'll improve the terrain no problem.

B:
i suppose i schould give the palladin more offensive hero abilities, but what really? What would befit a palladin to have. hmm any suggestions?

How about a bigger mana regeneration for the wizard GaDDeN?

C:Dm player
I understand the balance problem, but i think it dependss greatly on how the dm plays. If his hero unit gets kiled, he has lost by the way.

Which option is better :
A weaker dm and he also starts in the dungeon?
B Dm unable to leave (and make him a pure summoner to send more units at the hero's or something)
C place a mercenary camp for both the dm and the hero players (1 in his lair the other by the fountains).

Yes Tim, please move it to the Map/Campaign Project forum so i can continue to work on it.

yes GaDDeN i did make this map a time ago but i was never able to host it. i really tried a lot of things to get it hosted, now i''ve dug it up so it doesn;t get lost..

Did you make it outside by the way with your hero?

Moved per request.

Yes fountains was a good place to hang out, BUT it ruins the gameplay. I think the game should be about a small group of adventurers trying to escape a mine (meaning they should keep moving as much as they can). Perhaps you can have small "safe spots" where the heroes can heal up before they move on.

About the heroes: Im just saying that the wizard should have one or two passives instead of 5 actives, and that the hero with 5 passives should have one or two more actives.

We did not survive all the way, we got ambushed by Tim somewhere on the eastern side of the map and got cornered.

Do you have TFT now?

No i haven't bought tft yet.
i'll go brainstorm on those safe places.
also did you know the dm can see almost everything of what goes on in the mine? So a ambush is very likely.
Tim hasn't said much about his role as a DM would love to hear about his experience..

The fountains are problematic, because they encourage static rather than dynamic gameplay. If the DM controls them, he can heal his units and thus gain a bigger and bigger advantage, on the other hand, if the heroes control them, they can survive for as long as they wish, gaining more and more experience in the process.

This doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the map. The idea I got from the description was that the heroes have to move fast, because the DM gets more and more units, so the heroes have to creep to get items and experience to be a match for those units, and get to the exit before those units get too powerful. Also, when it said on the loading screen that the DM should avoid combat, I got this idea that if the DM makes a mistake, looses too much units, or just attacks in a wrong way and the heroes get around his units, that the heroes get an advantage and can hunt the DM down as an alternate win condition; so, like I said, this could be a fun game of cat and mice, with the interesting balance circle of DM's-units > Heroes > DM. At least, this is the impression I got from the loading screen.

The hero design had some problems, as has been mentioned, some heroes had only passives, making them boring. Another problem is that they start at level 1, meaning they get a very poor choice of skills from the start; each only one skill. The heroes should start at a higher level, or have some innate unit abilities by default, or both.

The unit abilities could be some utility skills that players otherwise wouldn't find being worth a skill point if they were hero abilities, but are cool to have since they add to the gameplay, like dispel, sentry wards, stuff like that, or things that players pick by default because they're essential, like brilliance aura. That way, the only choosable hero skills would be the ones that offer a balanced choice.

Just an idea of what this map's gameplay could be like: The heroes get to a door that needs two switches turned to open. They can all go to switch A first, then to switch B, loosing lots of time, but staying safe. They can, instead, split in 2 teams, each going to one switch, getting the door open in half the time, but risking that the DM will attack one team in a dead end when the others are far away. A third strategy would be to send one hero to each switch, while the two remaining heroes would guard the pasageways to the switches so that if the DM chose that time to attack, the two heroes that went to the switches wouldn't be trapped, but could come back and help the two guarding heroes defeat the DM's units.

This is the sort of potential this map has, if you do it right. Some good ideas, excelent terrain and lots of playtesting could make it a winner, despite being made in RoC.

My experience as a DM was basically not knowing where my units were, having a ton of shades that got killed from AoE spells, and a powerful hero. I found myself killing the creeps that the heroes were meant to kill so I could level up. My units died quickly, and once they were gone all I had left was a hero. I think the DM should be able to control the creeps if he’s in their area or something to that extent.

Basically, as a DM, I felt entirely underpowered, as if I was trapped in my own dungeon, and that I had no way to win other than to wait for the heroes to almost die and ambush them at the fountains.

*working on a better version*
already done:
-heroes have been improved (are stronger have intresting abilities and start on level 2)
-if a door is breached/opend most creatures come under DM controle
-safe haven with mercenary base for heroes doors can be closed/opend by heroes

note: above is in 1.02 =and is not yet released

in progress:
modding dm unit
more triggers=more fun
terrain improvment
and more