Spacecraft Discussion - Part 1: Game Type

This thread is an open discussion regarding the idea of creating a spaceship map modification for Warcraft 3. By Spaceship, I mean ships in space, not a map within a ship's interior.

Feel free to join in the discussion, refer to any point with suggestions, criticism or new ideas.

-- A little background --
Space ships were the first models I created for Warcraft 3. They are easy to make, animate, texture and efficient for filesize. The idea of doing spaceship maps has always been an interest of mine and has been attempted a few times, also by others. It's very different to normal Warcraft, and its very do-able.



-- Brainstorm! --
Graphics aside, the stumbling block has always been 'what to make?'. What sort of map would best suit a Spaceship map? An AOS-style war? A Battleships spin-off in space? A RPG with various piloting roles? A RTS melee mod?

I'd like to hear some ideas about potential game types for such a theme.

Regarding a potential project, I have no plans to instigate a Spaceship map at this time. I've started discussion to generate some ideas. Perhaps a project will result from the discussion. We shall see.

Well I think the first mistake ppl make when making these types of maps is:

- They make the map 256x256?
You end up the majority of the game simply searching for enemies.
If you manage to destroy a base they can keep rebuilding/relocating and the game goes on forever/

- They make ships low cost and easy to build
Therefore its possbile to have 100's of ships which is very difficult to control.
Micro'ing becomes void and it just becomes wave vs wave, with whoever has the best upgrades & autocast spells.

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I can think of 3 potential map types that ppl are already familiar with:

RPG - You get 1 ship, which you can constantly upgrade, with new weapons/armors/shields etc.
Perhaps sell ship and buy better versions form time to time.

AoS- Similiar to the RPG but toned down a bit (less complciated)
All units would be spaceships meeting in lanes.
Very similiar to the Battleships map

Melee - (RTS) This is the one I'd personally like to see.

How I would imagine it>

- It will focus smaller forces that war3, having the maximum amount of units to say 10-20.
- All units will be semi-heroes, capable of upgrading & improving.
- There will be many resources spread about such as Nebula clouds, Blackholes, Quasars, Wormholes etc.
- There will be alot more research/upgrades available.

The game would evolve mostly around
- raids / plundering
- resource stations

-------

Alot of skill would be invovled with micro and macro.

Micro - Controlling the small forces of units:
- energy
- shields
- phasers
- cloaking
- torpedos/missles
- EMP/Shockwaves
- self repairs
- jammers/locking
- launching fighters,
& many other devices.

You could also have a Salvage wreckage option, where each destroyed ship leaves a minor wreckage and can be gathered and reprocessed.


Macro - Spreading your control over the multiple areas of map, all the resource stations, upgrading & researching whilst at the same time being in combat with your forces.

Ships

At the Start each player could begin with small ship types e.g.
- Frigates
- Interceptors
- Shuttles

Gradually, after setting up a few resource stations &/or researching you could build a few larger ships
- Cruisers
- Assultships

Mid-Game, you can pump out a few larger ships
- Battleships
- Carriers

Late-Game, finally you can begin the real fearful ships
- Titans
- Destroyers

If would never up, excessive army sizes. It would still be kept small.
You would need to plan and strategically think of creating optimum fleets.

Such as:
- 1 Destroyer/Titan combined with many Cruiser - anti frig type ships.
Destroyers would have difficulties fighting many small frigates.

- 5 Intercetpros / 5 assult ships, for fast raids, in and out.
Could cripple players bases before they could retaliate.

Bases
Ships wouldnt be the only fighting force
Bases could also have a few cool features
- Defense Grids
- Shield Grids
- Defense Systems
- Turrets/Missle Pods
- Repair Bays
etc.

It would obviously get more interesting with:
- Multiple "races"
- Large Multipleyer games

Oh yea - If you do start a project, Im in>>

i would indeed like to see fulla's thing. Though it would also be hot to have an RPG where you can dock your ship and go into somekind of space-base to perchase upgrades, and have some walking gameplay bits as well... Meh.

You definetly need multiple races, ofcourse.

Yea, get into a brawl in the Space Pub

Fulla:
Some interesting points. I don't want to discuss ship types and weapons just yet though. What I'd like to pick up on is the gameplay ideas you mentioned.

Resources - The problem with playing a real-time space ship map is how to weigh time and scale. Ship battles are taking place in real-time situations, and yet huge battleships are being constructed in such short amounts of time. Not very realistic, although realism isn't a major concern. I like the idea of modifying ships, but constructing ships is an awkward aspect to bring into the scope considering timescale.

Scale is very important. From the engine point of view; large ships are unmanageable, as are large structures. I like the idea of customised frigates and escort ships in macro and micro skirmishes with enemy ships, and outposts.

Terrain. Space is very empty, but empty maps make poor battle situations. The map would need to have a lot of features that affect logistics, battle tactics and territory control - asteroid fields, nebulae, etc.

Maybe something along the lines of Imperium Galactica, where you can capture planets and then develop them, as well as building customised ships (items could manage this easily, with cannons/hulls/sensors/weapons, etc.)?

That's a good idea for a large scale system, but when you're batch colonising planets and producing fleets of ships, surely customising individual ships becomes trivial?

A few ideas:

- Some form of rock scissor paper, so that instead of just mass producing the most powerful ships, the smaller vessels are required due to the weakness of capital ships in fighting smaller vessels, perhaps? Maybe limit what large guns can hit? This would also make individual capital ships important, but not all powerful.

- Customisation doesn't have to be just for one ship. I'm sure you could design a system where by you could set a setup for, say, a Class One Battleship, and those ships would be built with that setup of equipment.

Excellent ideas.

The customisation could extend to racial design, such that you select from an extended list of features for your race with points before beginning play. Racial features affect your choices of ships, bonuses to units etc. My brother designed a footman wars with such a system, I'll have to dig that out.

I like the simplistic foundation for strategy, something like:

Fighters > Battleships > Frigates > Fighters.

RPG would be interesting, there is already atleast a few space melees.

I don't think this should become an RPG. Spaceships leving up just wouldn't make any sense. Another thing is that RPGs usually get boring after playing them a few times (most get boring a lot sooner). Maybe giving smaller ships very high evasion would be a good idea to make up for them being weaker.

There's no need to make sense. There are dozens of Space RPGs out there. I just thought it would be nice to have that type of map in Warcraft III too, but it was just my opinion.

Have you ever played the game Escape Velocity Nova? Basically it's a space RPG where you have to jump from star system to star system in the midst of different factions that are continuously blowing each other away around you. Instead of leveling up, you buy better ships (and modifications for ships) as you progress through the game and your reputation with the various factions increases or decreases.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/games/evn/

I think this could be decently translated to Warcraft III with its own original touch.

This is just some thoughts for gameplay
This is highly inspired from years of Eve Online

Resources
- Asteroids - Provide Ore
- Nebulars - Provide Gas/Dust
- Spacial Anomilies? - Provide AntiMatter

Mining Asteroids could be done like this:


A mining ship, has a cutting laser that it "channels" onto an asteroid, just like when a peasant cuts a tree.
Eventually it gains some Ore that it transports back to an outpost.

This could be done simply like the war3 system, or could be abit more advanced.
- The miner have an inventory that slowly stacks up, so that you can do some prolonged mining and transports larger quantities in one go.
- Maybe have special Hauler ships that act as "townhalls" in terms of resource returning. The miners empty their inventories into the haulers then stay and mine and the hauler returns several miner cargo's back in one go.

Could have a few different types of Asteroids, not actually differnet but just visually different to look cool



I made really basic example of how a "map" could look>


Once you get going could potentially end up with larger mining operations.


Nebulas
This would could use a differnet gathering technique, maybe differnet ships are required or special equipment?


Spacial anomilies
Probably require more advanced mining ships and research.
Maybe can only be farmed by building stations ontop of them.

Id have it so atleast 75% of all ships can built from basic Ore, farmed from Asteroids.
The other resources would be used for upgrades, research, customiztion, enhancements to ships and stations & the real specialised ships like Science Vessels etc.

Startoff

1x Outpost (Base)
2x Combat Firgates (Small scout types)
2x Mining Frigates (Small mining vessels)

The goal would be to quickly scout of nearby Belts and clusters of Asteroids and begin mining.
Like on Command & Conquer you can raid opponents Harvesters, so protecting them would be critical.

GamePlay
Id go low quantity/variety of ships but give each unit an inventory or some sort, allowing you could add on
- Shield Generators
- Nano-Bot Repairiers
- Phasers/Lasers
- Missle/Torpedo Pods
- Sensory Boosters
etc. etc.

For Ships "Classes", could have going from smallest to largest
- Drones
- Fighters
- Frigates
- Destroyers
- Cruisers
- Battle Cruisers
- Battle Ships
- Titans

Drones/Fighters wouldnt exactly be ships but instead carried by larger ships.
- 1 type of Cruiser could specialise in - Drone Carrier
Instead of standard weapons it launches small drones like the starcraft Carrier
- Larger ships like Titans could carry small fleets of Fighters they launch, which are slightly larger manned drones.

A set Evasion system could be good like so:

Frigate - Firing at - Frigate - 100% chance to hit
Destroyer - Firing at - Frigate - 90% chance to hit
Cruiser - Firing at - Frigate - 80% chance to hit
BattleCruiser - Firing at - Frigate - 70% chance to hit
Battleship - Firing at - Frigate - 60% chance to hit

Obviously this means a large fleet of small ships can overwhelms 1 large ship

If you wanted it to be more advanced, could have a Locking System.
In order to fire, you need to lock on to the target.
Bigger ships would take longer to lock onto smaller ships.

OR/AND
Could have a Jamming device/system, where ships can carry jamming equipment to prevent units shooting.

Special Equipment

When you equip missle/torpedo launchers, could have an ulimited ammo OR, you could make it so you build the missles and load them.
In this case you could get away with making them more powerful and more devastating.
EMP missles - could negate shields for example.

Shield Transfers/Area Strengtheners.
Could have ships that have an "aura" that boosts all nearby ships shields.
Perhaps a channeling ability that transfers shields to another ships shields.

Well first remove the player limitation and make every player have 1 spaceship. So basicly 100 vs 100 ,.. this is more of a joke than a real suggestion.

I can't say anything beyonde fulla, so, meh