| 12-30-2002, 11:02 AM | #1 |
Im not a member of that group, but its just that ive heard more complaints and seen alot of bugs in their games as of late. Just post what you find here. Heres what i found so far in 2.31. -Sleeps cooldown is too short. The wisp can sleep 2 heroes at the same time and still manage to get in a few attacks. It should disable the enemy so the wisp can get away, not screw them over. I suggest a 20 to 30 second cooldown with a 3, 6, 9 sleep duration on heroes. -The dreadlord attacks a bit too fast. In the last game at level 10 the dreadlord was able to hit about once every 1.2 seconds. It was wrong for a vampiric unit. It shouldnt have endurance aura either, maybe a non-healing unholy, but not endurance. -The Doom Prophet shouldnt be able to buy more than 3 manuals and 2 strength tomes. When its able to get high hp and its only hittable by magic, it becomes impossible to kill it pretty much. -Magic immune pots only. The Cape even though it disapears after its revived you, it makes the game very unfair. With a few boots you cant even catch the stupid vampire. Maybe instead of revive it can have 5 charges of spell immunity or maybe more. -The wisp shouldnt be able to hit from the mountain. It gets annoying when its sitting at the top of the mountain killing and you cant get to it. It also makes it hard to get souls, since it can just sleep you while the souls go by. Maybe a shorter range, or better yet just complete removal of the hero and replace it with something else. How about a Hell Minion, a hero made from the doom guard. -Quite a few of the stronger units are fast in movement and attack. Its not right to have a unit thats strong, fast, and has a great attack speed. There tends to be nothing you can do to defeat them. -Storm hammer needs to be weakened in how long it lasts. Maybe 4 seconds on heroes at most, and a bit weaker too. Being able to stop and damage the enemy at the same time so much is just wrong. And removal from the hunter's wisp would be nice, maybe frost nova or cold arrows. Ive also seen that youve done some spell editing. When editing spells, you gotta remember that they were made for a melee game, and reflect that. Stormbolt stuns for a long time because it was meant to stop a key unit for a while. 3 seconds and 100 damage wouldnt make much of a difference in a big battle, but it will make all the difference in a 1v1 style battle. Divine shield is just plain wrong, since once your lvl 5 with that thing you can just do shield runs and smash up their Main Structure, but its worse in 1v1 style games, since it gives the person a very unfair advantage. Anti magic shell is useful for a battle, but its used as an escape tool in your game. It needs to be cut to about 30 seconds instead of 60. Some spells like chain lightning were ment to tear through your enemies lines and hit units all over, but in this game you really arent hitting that many things. If you cut it to about 2 or 3 bounces and increase the damage by about 50-100 damage a hit, and set the 0.15 to 0, that way it does full damage every hit. Something i would like to see is a little box that comes up when you select a hero telling you what they can do and such, then two buttons with yes and no to choose if you want that hero. I also saw that your terrain was redone. Maybe you could redo your units a bit, and give the town militia units a 50 damage magic attack that costs no mana but has a 30 second cooldown. That way the doom prophet has more to worry about, but wont die right off the bat from town militia. And please make the 90$ fire item (forgot if its holy or inner) have an AoE apon death effect. That way the vamps are less likely to chase heroes down. Overall, im basicly saying fix the spells up for a hero style game, and fix up the units that are unfair. And please take the magic immunity away from the arcane slayer, even if he is a mage he should be hittable by magic. Maybe Purge with increased cooldown instead of magic immunity, that way you can hit him with magic but he still cant be buffed, plus a short lasting slow down on the target. One last thing. Please change the AoE on Rain of Blood, the stupid Blood Golems keep getting stuck on the walls. Thanks. |
| 12-31-2002, 12:32 AM | #2 | |
I will try and post a counter to each one of your points from my experience with the map (I play it all the time on both sides): Quote:
I'm not sure what you are talking about with purge. The AoE on rain of blood is a minor inconvenience, and adds a sense of randomness to the spell which is cool. Just aim it away from walls if you don't want them getting stuck there. |
| 12-31-2002, 05:31 AM | #3 |
Thanks for the responses, Byelobog. You saved me the trouble of having to write them in myself :) |
| 12-31-2002, 06:01 AM | #4 |
You just dont get it. These were things i saw as wrong, and if you havent noticed, the rain of blood has a really hard time aiming it away from walls. The paths are small, and when using it to attack a town (which is one of the best uses for it) they wind up on the walls. I lost intrest in what you said since you seem to have some kinda love for this unbalanced game. Storm bolt should be able to stop them, not murder them. Reduce the damage atleast, since when a vamp is stunned for so long it becomes unfair. And since you seem to not get it, by 1v1 i mean that most of the time you wind up in a 1v1 scenerio. Right now i dont really care about the strength or speed of the units, its just that the spells are unbalanced. Common, being able to sleep up to 2 and sometimes even 3 heroes at a time it becomes just plain unfair. You cant hit it but it can hit you. Stunning spells should be shortened, since they were made to be in a melee game. I know what im talking about when it comes to spells, and i suggest you listen. But i guess it doesnt matter to you. |
| 12-31-2002, 06:38 AM | #5 |
If you have SO MANY problems with a single game, then why not just play it? Some of them were good suggestions but if your trying to change the whole game around that's a little too much. Whether the game is balanced or not, it's still extremely popular, so if you make a dramatic change to it, it might even lose its popularity. Obviously the majority of the players are happy with it, so it should stay as it is. |
| 12-31-2002, 06:41 AM | #6 |
Ok, ok. I dont care if you leave it the way it is, but just change sleep. It should let the wisp get away, not let it hold 3 hunters in one place. And im not the only one thats been complaining about that spell. Everyone that plays that game complains about it, except the vamps of that particular game. |
| 12-31-2002, 06:47 AM | #7 |
how does sleep screw them over though? if you attack the sleeping unit it wakes right back up... the wisp is so weak that it would take him FOREVER to kill something by putting it to sleep and attacking a few times then sleeping again. The wisp is a weak hero, annoying enemies with sleep is what he's all about :) |
| 12-31-2002, 07:52 PM | #8 |
archersRcheap, we've done EXTENSIVE balance testing and tweaking over the past couple months with this map, plain and simple. Different strategies are required depending upon what other heros you're up against. Play smart and it's balanced. Play as a team and it's balanced. Do neither and it will definately seem unbalanced. |
| 01-01-2003, 12:24 PM | #9 |
archersrcheap, have you played 2.31? it's kinda perfectly balanced with skilled players... |
| 01-01-2003, 08:29 PM | #10 |
Plus if you're so worried about sleep being cheap, play the priest-looking hunter, he is immune to magic. Or, play the footman type hunter and before you get close to the wisp turn on invulnerability. I have destroyed wisps with either of those two strategies in the past. The key to remember is that each hero / vamp has a counter hero / vamp. Example: The meat-man will destroy any melee type hunter hero, however stick the troll trapper or the archer or the wisp against him and he is toast as they can just snipe at him while he can't catch them. Example 2: Vampire wisp: Pick the priest hero, then you don't have to worry about sleep, and you can firebolt him and run up on him. If he is sitting up on top of the hill sniping villagers, summon a water elemental or sit by the entrance after you place a sentry ward and kill all of the souls he gets, then you get the souls instead or they are wasted. Counter two: Pick the hunter wisp, get the fire orb item that costs 90, and get some health potions, and snipe back at him, and with those items you will force him to flee / waste the souls collected. Example 3: Vampire tremere (the necro): he falls easy if you run up and blast him with a melee hero, I have killed enemy vamp tremere even with the cloaks using the foot-man looking hero, run up using invulnerability and just wail on his *** and with critical hits and some damage items he is helpless to use infernals against you, his only choice is to run, and you can often kill him before he gets away. Etc etc - each hero has a counter hero, if you examine in depth. If you really really hate a certain vamp / hunter, then pick their counter hunter / vamp and pwn them when someone else picks that character. |
| 01-03-2003, 08:13 PM | #11 |
ArchersAreCheap, I built 90% of FMVH, so let me try to clarify some things for you. Anyone discouraged with any of these issues should read this. ======================== You just dont get it. These were things i saw as wrong, and if you havent noticed, ======================== First off before i get into the "bugs", this statement is completely wrong, I've shaped the map based upon the feedback of hundreds of users for over 50 versions, you are just one person, and i can't think of anything to justify your going off on such a rant of self-importance. I appreciate your concern for the map, but as the designer that you claim to be, you need to adopt a bit more humility and respect when presenting problems to other design teams. Now the rest of this is more for everyone else, let me address the issues archer has presented step by step. Some of these are blizzard level problems, some of them aren't "bugs" as he likes to say, but simply part of the way the map is supposed to be. First off, all vampires and hunters are not balanced for combat! They are balanced for the game as a whole, vampires are designed for 4 things, gathering souls, killing hunters, supporting other vamps or running like hell. No vampire or hunter can ever defeat the Corpse Fiend however every one of them can outrun it. When you think of balance issues you need to look beyond the "hero arena" mentality. A vampires strength lies in its ability to kill hunters (slayer, corpse fiend), their ability to run away from hunters (Scout, Enchantress), their ability to support other vampires (Doom Prophet, Spirit of the Damned), or their quick harvesting ability (bloodmage, beast warrior). That's how the vampires are designed, some of their roles overlap as well, for instance the slayer harvests and supports other units well, and the prophet is deadly when the hunters have no magical attacks. So with that said, let me address these issues. ======================== -Sleeps cooldown is too short. ======================== Response: The wisp is utterly weak, The reccomended hunter to vampire attack ratio in this game is 3:1. Just as in the origional vampire hunters, and like the origional vamp hunters, your fellow hunters will be around to wake their allies by force attacking them. This is a team game, teamplay is a requirement which is why this isn't a hero arena. ======================== -The dreadlord attacks a bit too fast. ======================== Response: The dreadlord is designed to kill hunters. Hes not supposed to be "balanced". Late game hunters won't have a problem killing the dreadlord at all. Some of them, like the demon hunter, can even solo the dreadlord with some of the advanced items. ======================== -The Doom Prophet shouldnt be able to buy more than 3 manuals and 2 strength tomes. ======================== Response: I agree with you on this, in 3.0 he only has 80% evasion so he is defeatable by meele heroes. The hunters will be able to buy more magic items to attack him with as well. ======================== -Magic immune pots only. ======================== Response: You are only allowed one pair of boots of either type. In 3.0 the focus of the vampire kills are on individual vampires instead of a static count of 15. This is to help those vampires suffering with one poor teammate who has just died 8 times (weve all been there :P). In this event, the vampires will no longer have magic immunity with the mantle. ======================== -The wisp shouldnt be able to hit from the mountain. ======================== Response: The wisp will die easily otherwise, try actually playing the wisp sometime. Its not an easy character to play, and the only way he can harvest alone is by firing off of that mountain. In 3.0 I'm removing the anti-camping towers and allowing the soul forges to attack hunters, this will allow you to chase vamps all the way up the mountain. (note the anti-camping towers were designed to prevent hunters from just sitting there and attacking souls, souls are much faster now, have 5xhp and evasion, so this isn't as necessary anymore) ======================== -Quite a few of the stronger units are fast in movement and attack. There tends to be nothing you can do to defeat them. ======================== Response: Teamwork will kill every vampire, remember 3:1 ratio its not a hero arena. A good hunting team is the demon hunter, the wisp, and the archer, those 3 will be able to kill any vampire together. The wisp can heal the demon hunter, the archer can faerie fire the vamps with high armor and do tremendous damage, the demon hunter can slow the vampire escape. One thing i also like about this team is that you can use the DH and the archer to shadowmeld and set up a vicious ambush. There are many, many other combinations of hunting teams, experiment with them when you are ready to learn how to play the hunter side. ======================== -Storm hammer needs to be weakened in how long it lasts. ======================== See the sleep issue, the wisp is weak that's one of its only defenses, and the infantryman is slow, that's his only means of helping to kill vampires. ======================== -the rain of blood has a really hard time aiming it away from walls. The paths are small, and when using it to attack a town (which is one of the best uses for it) they wind up on the walls. ======================== This is a blizzard issue. The solution to this problem is to make the infernals only drop on the same cliff level, and as a designer you are probably aware that I cannot just go in and change that. In the future aim them in open areas, or towns without cliffs. If anything i will look into summoning them individually with a low cooldown time, how about that? ======================== - I lost intrest in what you said since you seem to have some kinda love for this unbalanced game. I know what im talking about when it comes to spells, and i suggest you listen. But i guess it doesnt matter to you. ======================== This is completely unnecessary, I appreciate that you are passionate about FMVH enough to make such a foolish comment, but you are not the only person playing this game. Hundreds of people have voiced their approval at the map, four other designers including FM_Drax, (our skinner and graphic artist) have put tremendous work into balancing the map to the standards that I have described previously. I do have a love for this “unbalanced game� as do my fellow designers and I don't appreciate them being be insulted in such a manner. FM_TertiaryEye __________________ |
| 01-03-2003, 08:33 PM | #12 |
You are all right it is unbalanced Dumb people never win if its so unbalanced then why is there a FMVH game on the list at almost anytime you look at it? ://// sounds to me like you just suck and wanted to flame on it well flame on flamer you just look like a lamer :gfu: for the resy ... play on players FM_Tertiartyeye your game is one of the best played and built games ive come to play in these many years on b net and i look forward to seeing more of your work in the futer thank you for all you have done on the map its people like you that give people like us choices of games to play :foot: |
| 01-04-2003, 03:46 PM | #13 |
BoBaFeTT although what you say is mostly true, you didn't have to be so harsh about it. emote_sweat |
| 01-05-2003, 11:51 PM | #14 |
I played it some more, and i guess its not that unbalanced. But one thing i did notice which seemed kinda cheap, you can sleep the avatar. Plus it sleeps for up to 20 seconds if sleep is at the first lvl, 60 at final lvl. Maybe you could make a trigger to were when its slept it wears off in 5 seconds. And no, i wasnt being self important. I was being mad at things. Sorry about that. And dont worry about making many with slow cooldown, just change the area of effect on Rain of Blood. It will make the area were they hit smaller, which will make it more likely to hit what you want it to as well. |
| 01-06-2003, 06:12 AM | #15 |
Maybe the avatar should be magic immune. Of course an easy solution would just be for a hunter to hit the avatar. |