Some ideas about hero control, what's your opinion?

Alright, my map is kinda complicated. It's in the melee format, but heros are a large part of it (and kinda the point). Now, in order to prevent heros from becoming invincible weapons of mass chaos, I have taken some preventive measures. I want to know, are these good? And do you have any ways that you can think of? Here they are.

1. When a hero reaches level 11 (out of 18) certain units of every player gain a critical strike against heroes, in order to make it so that a hero can't just walk into an enemies base and wipe it clean, they actually take damage.

2. I've been thinking on this one. Maybe, all heros only gain 75% of the XP they would normally earn. Or maybe, their XP gain lowers as they level up. What do you think?

3. There aren't items really, as in like with DotA items. Just the basics, like claws of attack and stuff like that.

4. 3 hero limit, duh.

And that's all I can think of at this moment. Any other ideas you can think of? Maybe suggestions or improvemnts on what I've got already? Thanks to any feedback that is worth anything.

the very fact you consider the possibility of a hero wiping an entire base is bad and means that they are insane...in footmen frenzy certain heroes can simply buy immolition item and wipe hundreds of footmen which is the thing i really hate about that map.
however if you really want it this way let the player only have 1 hero (2 at most)...how long do you expect your game to last with 3 heroes?
a critical strike is a bad idea since it would be weird. the only thing i could think of is making a special attack type (based of chaos for example) that would do 2x damage to heroes, but 50% to all other units. or make a special unit that wouldn't have so much hp, but insane damage and can only target heroes.

Leveling should improve, not make worse. Simply reduce gains in stats.


You do know you can change the leveling rate in gameplay constants?

Why don't make the units stronger with a periodical event?
In my oppionen 100% at the beginning and then a strong lowering of the gained exp, so you prevent, that a Lvl 3 fights against a Lvl 6 for example.
Is perfect for a melee like map.
Why 3 heros and not only 1? xD

I like the idea of changing the experience rates as they level up or tone them down at higher levels. However, if you don't want them to be killing machines there are many ways to do it, but, I would assume if a person is good enough to realized the advantage of a high-level hero they would try to get it regardless of the penalties.

If you're trying to downplay the power of heroes in a melee map but still make them an important part then the way to do it would probably be to weaken them and their skills at higher levels, since those are what give them the advantage over normal units or other heroes.

In normal Warcraft melee, it's actually quite rare for a hero to get their ultimate and even more rare that they max their levels, so if you're playing in situations where they are already "invincible weapons of mass chaos" before that point, then perhaps they need to be toned down. At max level, however, I'd imagine that a hero should be somewhat "invincible"; of course, you shouldn't be able to send a lone hero against an army, but in a battle with comparable armies, I would expect a max level hero to come out alive or to be one of the last standing.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to make it seem like the heros were so powerful. I meant to say I didn't want a hero to be able to walk into an enemies base, kill a bunch of units, then run back out.
The critical strike thing is a bit awkward, but it's all I could think up. How would I be able to do the second attack, without it being active until a certain time?
I want heros to be strong, but not so damn strong that they can single-handedly decimate players. That's what I'm going for here. Reletive balance between unit and hero, so it doesn't become a hero fight with units doing nothing or just fodder, like DotA.
I think I may just make it a 2 hero limit. I want a little hero variety, so it isn't like DotA, only having 1 hero. Plus, there only 3 heros per race and a bunch of tavern heros.

@SFilip. Perhaps I should give every race a special unit that can only be trained at a certain point, but can only hurt heros and maybe only 3-4 can be made, so that a person can't jsut make heros useless. Thanks for the idea, I think I'll use it +rep and credits in map.

Alright, here's my newest system:
1. when a hero reaches lv 10, a new, special, hero killer unit becomes available.
2. Hero XP rates slowly decline as they level up, in order to better prevent large mismatches, like lv 2 v lv 5 heros.
3. Still, no major game adjusting items.
4. 2 hero limit

Just one question. How do I make it so that you can only have a certain number of a type of unit?

How about this:

Make level ups less powerful, and have larger XP gaps between levels.

Problem solved.

Why have abilities increase in direct proportion? The second level has a smaller marginal cost (unless it is a passive) due to the mana cost.

Why have large stat increases? No need for them.

If you want to limit hero power, don't put in tomes, and the crit strike vs heros sounds good. You may want to give casters a slow or something vs heros only that is occasional.

Here's my opinion: In a certain place surrounded by boundaries, create some custom units based on sheep named "You can only have 3 of them."(for example you limit them to 3), 1 for each player. And use the following triggers:

Note: that "0024" was something I randomly wrote ^_^
OK, when these triggers're done, add that "You can only have 3 of them." unit to the list of "Techtree - Requirements" of the unit-type you want limited.

There are quite some leaks in those triggers, let's see if you can fix them yourself ^_^

Or you can go into the gameplay constants and change it I believe.

Wyvernoid, thanks for the trigger but it looks for complicated than need be. I think doing something like this would be a little easier.

Make an Integer array called UnitLimit[Player number of owner of last trained unit]
Whenever unit X is made set UnitLimit to UnitLimit+1, then check to see if UnitLimit is > 3.
If UnitLimit is > 3, kill last created unit and display error message: You can only have three of those.

I would assume this would work. Maybe not as professional as possible, but it works.

@[niro] well, aren't we bursting with ideas, hmm? (not sarcasm) I don't think I'll put in tomes, and if I do you have to buy them, and they won't be 100 gold each... more like 750 or something. I decided to change the crit-strike to a unit that is particurly good against heros... IS THERE AN ARMOR THAT TAKES LESS DAMAGE FROM HEROS? (not yelling, jsut want to state the question...lol)

@CaptainGriffen: Are you not understanding this? I don't mean to sound rude here, but it seems like NO. I already stated that the heros aren't ultimate killing machines, I said I didn't WANT them to become that. By reducing the strength of abilties, it kind of ruins the point of levelling up. If your Ice Nova went from 50 damage at level 1 to 60 damage at level 2, that wouldn't be too great now would it? You'd rather have it go from 80 to 110 something. By making heros less powerful than need be, it ruins the point of them. I'm trying to keep them strong, but put in counter-measures to prevent them from being ultimate beings of death and chaos. I don't care if the hero makes it out alive, I care that it made it out alive with 100/1750 hp, instead of 1400/1750 hp. Now do you see? Sorry if I sound rude and assholeish here, I don't mean to, I'm just trying to make things clear.

About the unit limit: yeah, at first I thought like this too, but don't you think that you played trick on the player ;-) It took him time and money to train that unit but at last you killed his fruit ^_^

About the tomes: You mentioned 750 gold, but see the Orc Expansion Campaign, though in that campaign heroes were all that's important, tomes are still put to a high price 1100. Maybe you should put it a little lower, what about 1000. ^_^

About the armor type: Surely, customize it. Find something like "Damage Reduction Table" in the gameplay constants and explore them yourself, fun thing they are ;-)

Yea, I thought I saw something about armor in there, not sure how to mod it though.
Simple solution. Give the person back the resources he spent ^_^ problem solved! (i think... >_< Maybe make the units auto-build, but more expensive or something...)
Tomes, wasn't sure what to price them at. 1000 sounds pretty good. ^_^

Thx for your input!

Put that in a loop.


So, first of all you say I am wrong, then you say I am right...? Because 80 -> 110 is a smaller increase than that which WC3 melee has at the moment for level 1 to level 2 (which would be from 80 to 160). If you had read my post, you'd have seen that I was talking about the damage / additional skill point not being the same as the starting level, as the marginal cost falls as the mana cost does not/should not increase in line.

[quote]By making heros less powerful than need be, it ruins the point of them. I'm trying to keep them strong, but put in counter-measures to prevent them from being ultimate beings of death and chaos. I don't care if the hero makes it out alive, I care that it made it out alive with 100/1750 hp, instead of 1400/1750 hp.[quote]

So basically you want to....do what? Make it so high level heroes don't slaughter everything? Make it so high level heroes slaughter everything except anti-hero units which slaughter heroes?


Actually from where I'm standing you're mearly making yourself look foolish.

For example:

You say you want to reduce the xp gain at later levels, I recommend that you merely increase the XP requirements at higher levels. The results are the same, but one requires triggering and 'penalises' a player for leveling, while the other does not.

Well you didn't specify when you said WHAT to reduce, only to reduce stat increases per level. Well, "stat" coulf be for their HP, Mana, attack, attributes, defence, and ability strength. You never specified, attack strength and attributes.

So your saying that I SHOULDN'T increase mana amount per level? I don't get what you are trying to say with "marginal cost" every 3 seconds. Are you trying to say that I should keep the cost on the unit to cast a spell the same at level 6 of the ability as level 1? I used Frost Nova as a quick example of a spell somone may make. It's not mine, and I rarely play melee anymore so I don't have the damage increase in my head. I re-read your post a million times and not once did you say damage of heros, skill points, or anything reffering to anything you just said was in your post. Only marginal cost going down over levels and increasing the XP gain.

I want my heros to be strong, I want them to slaughter. I DON'T want them to be able to completely destroy everything and come out with a little scratch on their arm. (metaphors, ftw) I'd rather they be able to destroy everything but barely make it out alive. This is what the hero-slayers are for. They are not 1000000 hp units that can deal 9476856 damage to heros. no. They are units that can ONLY target heros, thus making it easier for them to find heros in the heat of battle and deal some damage to them. Thats why you can only have a few of them and they are expensive units. I prefer my idea of slowly decreasing XP gain, thus resulting in allowing heros to potentially catch up in level. Even with a larger XP gap, a hero in the heat of a large battle could still win the battle and gain levels.
The triggering is no big deal. A unit is created, unit created is a hero == true, set xp gain of last created unit = 75% (assuming it were one flat out rate) if not, it's not that hard. A unit gains a level, and then conditions to check for level, then do actions corresponding to those levels. It's easier than some of the triggering I'm currently doing. I think perhaps I should make the XP system work something like this.
Lv 1-6, 100%
Lv 7-12, 90%
Lv 12-18, 80%
Little triggering involved, gets to the point.

(ever played the Footman Frenzy by HatoUP? in a 3v3v3v3 game, if you are the last person to send units out, and you kill all the enemies currectnly in the center, your hero level would skyrocket. NOT what I want to happen.)

Thank you for the GUI trigger, I need that for another map too. Takes out like 3 triggers... lol...