Core Game Design Reworkings

I was thinking, that currently there are a few things wrong with Fish.

1. Some shit takes way too long to build
2. It can take way too long to get enough gold to build a godly base versus good players (Nigh impossible to do it within any reasonable amount of time, feel free to disagree)

My solution with Fish for 2.9 was:

-Make all buildings so that none takes more then 15 seconds to build/upgrade (including researches)
-Rework bank system costs like instead of 50/115/210/400 maybe 45/105/195/360? (isntead of 25/23/21/20 gold per 1 income it would be 22.5/21/19.5/18)

Now, there are a few problems for Naga as well.

1. Sometimes it just takes way too long to find a Fish, even with Tracer (noobs have much trouble with this. (This was a problem with slightly smaller map size too)
2. In the beginning unless your versus noob Fish it does take awhile to build any sort of momentum.
3. It is a royal pain in the ass to guard the middle. Yes, stasis and sentries help but noobs always end up camping because they don't feel safe using the middle.

These are the 3 main problems I have identified. Unlike Fish though, I am sort of lost on how to solve them. Please, this is a key area to brainstorm and ideas will greatly improve the game in my opinion.

Thanks

As you know i wanna remake the whole game mechanics of tropical tag. I know your afraid of big changes (of course you are, you have a fully functional fun game; why remake it?) but ill post anyway.

The most urgent issues of tropical tag (red) and my sollution to them (green)

Problem: Income
To be totally honest with you, i think the income system totally sucks donkey balls and it works exactly the same way as tower wars and other income maps: Spend gold to get more gold. This just doesnt make any sence, waste your gold to make more. I just hate the whole concept of that income system, and i allways have.

Sollution:
Make a resource gathering system much like warcraft's. Either use trees as income (chop down trees to get lumber for structures) or some other resource, such as gold coins lying around to be found. Perhaps the fish can construct one gold mine each to mine from? This way, you still encourage camping (which you appearently like) and still fixes the problem (you might not see it as a problem though.) with spending money to get income.

Problem: Prison System
I think you agree with me when i say the prison system needs a remake. Being a spirit isnt so boring anymore (at least i like the abilities you have) but protecting the prison is... annoying, to say the least. I hate the feeling of allways having to watch the prison. I would love the feeling of only having to chase fishies, instead of having to split my attention between attacking and camping.

Sollution:
I've told you this before but ill post it anyway. Instead of nagas killing fishies to place them in prison (like 500 other tags before TT) i think the nagas should devour the fishes. A devoured fish would be stuck inside the devouring nagas belly untill the naga dies. The devoured fish could perhaps also be saved by a fish touching the naga (you would ofc first have to disable / stun the naga). This way, the naga does not have to camp the middle in any way, fishes are free to build bases in the center too (since you could remove the prison and create a new area) and i also think its more fun for a dead fish to share vision with a naga and follow his movements than to sit in the midle waiting.

Problem: Unbuildable terrain?
Tropical tags terrain is not very building-friendly. Sheep tag and similar have plain fields with alot of space to build, which encourages the fun way of massing farms (corals) to stay alive. Tropical tag, however, only has camping areas and tight passages where your only option is to build a defense and camp untill a naga comes and you run to a new location.

Sollution:
Easy, make more open areas. Less trees, cliffs, rocks, water etc. And more open areas to build freely on. You could ofc keep the non-collision doodads and other nice eye-candy stuff but just make the map more buildable.

Bleh thats all for now, im sure ill come up with more later.

Terrain is gonna be taken care of by Jimpy. I am REALLY looking forward to his work. I have no doubt it will increase the quality of the game multifold.

Keep up the brainstorming guys. And feel free to point out other problems.

You could do a timed tag system, when the fish die a little 'grave' pops up that lasts for X seconds, then the fish revives at a random spot. The length of time should be relatively short at first, but get longer the closer to the end of the game is.

That also opens up avenues for fish to get upgrades to reduce revival time and naga to get upgrades to increase revival time.

-EDIT-

Another thought, you could make fish revive instantly, but win or loss is based on score rather than time. So if the fish die more than X times, Naga win.

Those are some really solid ideas pheonix. It might be a good idea to pass those through to the general public as well as the fanatics and see what the general census is.

I suppose I should give the pros and cons of each method so folks have a better idea of how these would work out in game.

the current jail method:

Pro: The naga have a definite understanding of how close they are to winning. It promotes teamwork amongst the fish (casting wisp spells to hinder the naga, while their buddies wait for an opening and rescue). And it also requires the fish that have managed to build up superbases to occasionally come out of their fortress and attempt a rescue, thus giving a chance for newer naga to catch some of the more difficult foes.

Con: some fish get tired of staying in jail for long periods of time when their allies can't or won't find an opening for a rescue. Many newer nagas can't seem to figure out how to prevent rescues without camping. having all seven captured fish rescued by the last living fish can greatly effect the moral of the nagas and cause some of them to leave. having a jail in the middle creates a slight gaming impact on the terrain around the middle, making it so there aren't many practical building spots close to the jail. (though a clever terrainer can get around this.)

The timer method

Pro: there would be no requirement for a jail opening up more terrain options. newbie fish wouldn't have to worry about being stuck forever. the naga would know exactly when a fish was going to be released.

Con: It would be like a frantic race for the naga to catch the last fish before the timer on the first one runs out. A fish could hide out until the timers on his buddies wear off, thus effectively rescuing the other fish with no risk to himself. there would be little incentive for teamwork amongst the fish. (other than stay alive long enough for me to revive)

The kill count method

Pro: there would be no requirement for a jail opening up more terrain options. newbie fish would be happy in the fact that they would always be able to continue building. It would make for a very fast paced game with all the fish constantly on the board. the naga wouldn't have to worry about their kills not mattering because a fish got a lucky rescue or a timer ran out.

Con: The main challenge for the naga has always seemed to me to catch all the fish at the same time rather than a problem getting mass kills. Mass kills are easy for the naga, especially if there are never any fish in jail. less fear of death for the fish. even with the destruction of all their buildings and having their gold halved, knowing that they will be respawned immediately might downplay the importance of not dying for the fish. and once again no incentive for teamwork amongst the fish.

Then lets make it a mode to test. It can be called -deathmatch.

What we need to do is brainstorm a fair amount of total kills before Naga win. Also, should it be vice versa? If Fish get a certain number of Naga kills they win?

As you can tell I like the score, instant rescue thing. I don't really like the timer method for the reasons MP stated. But, I am always interested to hear more brainstorms on all of this and the other problems originally layed out in the thread.

recources r great keep em how they are reduce shop build time
make wards set in middle last longer
does that fix it?

o, and beginning of game is like that, fish dont have big bases naga dont have big spells, just how it works

So, don't make it a little easier for Fish to amass gold?

I will increase ward time and reduce building time of Fish Structures. These two changes are good for sure.

ok great, and especially the shop,,, its fucking crazy, naga can take out a whole decent base before a shop gets built...

I REALLY like the death match idea. Maybe 15 kills by naga (obviously adjustable). For fish, they just have to prevent being killed for 20 minutes. Something like that would be GREAT to add to the game, DO IT! :-)

Of course if you do this, the jail simply needs to be removed in this mode. Like 15 seconds after you die, you revive somewhere on the map.

If you make fish hook attract burrowed crabs and fish that would be great since it attracts EVERYTHING ELSE in the game that is a unit EXCEPT THEM. Which means they can simply sit behind their base and NEVER be touched if they build it sufficiently enough. (Get enough room to where naga cannot blink and get some stun towers/slow towers from other fishies "helping" them.

rock, shift, blink, tele, tower ownage


on deathmatch... ya... and maybe a fish kills mode... they all sound shiny