What do people expect when you create a map?

I have a question I've been meaning to ask for awhile. I see that MOST if not all wc3 mod games are um... simple, by simple I mean it's a short game with a pretty easy goal that everyone tried to get to, like reach a certain score, or kill everyone or whatever....

My map like I said simulates the mmorpg of dofus thus it plays just like an mmorpg, by this I mean you need to take your time with this game. It's exactly as if it where it's own mmo only with less players. It's a long drawn out game that will take you along time to beat it, I'm not talking about no 2 hours long time I'm talking weeks, maybe even months. That's what the save hero function is for.

Do you see what I mean by simulation of the mmorpg? This is NOT a map you can beat in a few hours just by being strong, or good at it. This game requires you to take time into leveling and grinding JUST like in areal mmorpg, it might be boring atm yes, becuase I've not completed the map and it has no where near enough things to do in it yet to keepp one busy for that amount of time other then grinding. I just posted it on map testing to give you an idea on how this map is going to work.

Now, my question is is this kind of map too much for wc3ers to handle? Are you too intuned to playing the simple fast win in 2 hours maps to even think about trying to beat a mmo map? Is this type of map too good for you?

One reason I ask this is becuase, some times when I'm testing something new and I host it on bnet, I have a few people who play there but they get bored after alittle bit and leave. It makes me think they don't want to take the time to get powerful enough to do the things you're supposed to do to beat the game, instead they'd like to go play something quicker.

I also ask this is becuase When ever I see a mod map that is based on another game it's not like the game they based it on, instead it's just another game you can beat very quickly just by being good at it. I've seen several maps like this from diablo 2 to world of warcraft from final fantasy to ragnorok online. All these maps where just simple challenges you could beat in no time at all with skill.

Remember this is really my first succesful map I've ever made. With a little more then 2 years of expierience with world editor. And this is the first time I've submited a map to the public so I am not sure what people expect of my maps when I create them.

And you guys know how mmorpgs are right? You have to take awhile to invest into your character's leveling as this map does. Becuase I noticed not many of you aren't really intrested in this map and I think the reason why is not becuase the map is not good enough, but becuase it is too good. Am I right or am I wrong? and why?

In general, people on bnet want a quick game, that's why you see so many "simple", as you put it, maps. There is little incentive to play an MMO in warcraft's engine when you can play WoW or EQ2. That's not to say they don't have a niche, because there are a few RPG's that have been succesful, but if your randomly hosting on bnet, your just asking to be dissapointed.

From my experience, B.net players have a thresh hold of around 30 mins to an hour for a single game.

I'm not sure if you want to talk about maps in general or just about your map. I also don't see why people would not play your map if it's "too good". Perhaps you meant that it's accurate, very Dofus-like? (Shivers, Dofus is horrible)

MMORPGs are usually all about interaction with other players and that's something that's pretty hard to include in a WC3 map, hence MMORPG don't really translate well into a WC3 map. Yet, a lot of people play Defi4nc3's open-rpg map, which is basically a MMORPG -copy. Therefore we could perhaps make the assumption that your map just isn't that good, atleast at the moment.

MMORPG work because of the MM bit. Grinding is so much more enjoyable with a group of mates and random people, and things breaking the monotony. Take that away, and it sucks.

Don't make making it take ages to grind away at be a goal in itself. You're working from a given 'feature' back to gameplay, rather than deciding on gameplay first.

when I get to play wc3 I just look for the small maps, depending on your definition on complexity they might fall into the simple category. My fav maps used to be are bomber command, pirates, worm wars, azeroth grand prix, and some other I don't remember the name too well.

I declare myself guilty of making a very complex map, but I eventually noticed that you spend too much time on the same map, and it is not the case for the players, they don't want to wrestle with a lot of complex stuff unless the map becomes a cult or something, but for that to happen the map needs to be popular first , it is not a wonder DOTA started simple and then they added the tons of heroes and recipes .

You eventually find out that you spent so much time in some features that at the end are not actually noticeable for the players. You wouldn't know the tons of things I added to my arena but people who played it wouldn't remember more than 2...

Yeah it doesn't take ages to level it just would take along time to reach max level becuase it's 200. I see your points are very good.

If you don't like dofus, I don't know if you don't like it becuase of the graphics, the gameplay or just the theme itself. But this isn't little 2d sprites and tactical turn based like in the original. but still it is very much like dofus.

and yes my map isn't what you would call a quality built map yet. I still have alot of work to do.

I was also talking about map types in generel not just mine. SO if mmorpg type maps are still effective on bnet I have great faith my map will become a really good map. Especially to dofus fans who play wc3 aswell.

You can look at it as mutiple games in one I guess.

Just think, people can host it on bnet for severel purposes. Maybe they want to have a pk war of the alingments to level thier wings? Or maybe they would like to round up abunch of people to kill the extreamly tough monsters such as dark vlad or minotor. or even just host it to have a world domination contest by capturing all of the occupiable areas. Yes from wars to assisting, from cooperitive to competitive, from pve to pvp, I believe this map will become a great map.

I chuckled.

Personaly, I'm a fan of the 30 minutes or less category of maps. I want to be able to play a game without it taking a considerable part of my day to finish.

I like well made tags such as tree tag. you should mix some ideas like tree tag with vampirenism. Put some doodads to color up the map a litte.
Don't make it cheap little sheep tag. Triggers are ensentiel. To me new stuff is wat's most important.

hmmm Well I can also say that this map is like a one map campaign anyway, it would be like hosting the entire night elf expansion campaign on bnet for example. It's like a multiplayer return of the dragoon, or unsung legends. I think one of the problems is that I lead everyone to believe that the map would be like a normal open rpg, instead I should catagorize it as a campaign I guess.

I am fine with rpg's as long as I don't have to kill rats for an hour, in order to complete a quest.

I am curious though, if your map simulates dofus, does that mean it is a tactics/turn based RPG? That would be pretty cool on Bnet.

For those of you who don't know, dofus is a MMOTRPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Tactical Role Playing Game... *phew*) where the player runs along a world map. From there, he can choose to attack enemies, and if he does, it switches to a Tactics RPG (Simalar to Final Fantasy Tactics, or Ogre Tactics) style.

no, it's not tactical, and it's hard to explain why, but if you play the map you'll know why lol.

Everything is just like dofus except the battle system which is real time, I say it's dofus converted to real time battle.

But I do plan on making a Dofus-Arena map which WILL be tactical if possible, chances are it is.