AI Tournament #2: definition thread

12-09-2007, 12:15 AM

Ok, because all the people here is becoming sleepy, I want to propose the second edition of this tournament.

I didn't started before this event because I didn't have time to lead it, but now that we're in holidays, I think it's a good time to start something.

OK guys... let's define the rules. Several ones were defined in this thread, and we defined that this tournament will be all against all, as follows:

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

Now I want to propose this idea, and I think this one will satisfy your interests. First let's assume that all that have posted thus far are going to participate, so we will have this table:

Possible AI tournament #2 arrangement:

	emeraldemon	moyack	TheSecretarts	vesuvan doppleganger	Rising_Dusk
emeraldemon	X
moyack		X
TheSecretarts			X
vesuvan doppleganger				X
Rising_Dusk					X

Da Rulez:

We'll use the game scores to define the winner.
Only ONE game will be played.
We'll select the map that we'll use for this tournament.
We'll modify the selected map in such way that it can store the AIs, a script that controls the score and will detect iff the game has a winner so it can automatically end the game. This script could be done in GUI so any people can see how is it and ensure contest transparency.

Who will win?? The three AI with more score.

About the table:

This table will be used to define the games, save the scores and define who will make the replay.
Obviously, the diagonal is not allowed, so we won't have me vs me.
The Tournament would start with emeraldemon vs me, the winner of the game will be inserted in the upper half of the table with the game score and the loser will be put in the lower half of the table. As an example, let's say emeraldemon wins, so the table will be filled in this way:

Possible AI tournament #2 arrangement - First game done:

	emeraldemon	moyack	TheSecretarts	vesuvan doppleganger	Rising_Dusk
emeraldemon	X	emeraldemon 123456
moyack	moyack 98765	X
TheSecretarts			X
vesuvan doppleganger				X
Rising_Dusk					X

Who will do the replay?? the next to the right, in this case, TheSecretarts. And if Emeraldemon is playing against Rising_Dusk, then I will do the replay.
It doesn't matter if you win or lose, the scores will be added to the total.

Doing it in this way, we will ensure that ALL the AIs will play against ALL the AIs, and evaluation the game would be more interactive.

Now the only issue is to define if we'll do this time a team AI contest (2v2) or we'll do a 1v1 tournament. In order to define this I'll post a pool so we can decide how the tournament will be done.

So... let's vote and put your opinions.

12-09-2007, 12:45 AM	#2
The Elite	I vote 1v1 because in 2v2 the strong will be stronger and the weak will be weaker. Or in other words the more skilled AI crafters will find it easier in 2v2. Lets try and make it a bit more newb friendly

12-09-2007, 06:35 AM

Timmay

I would prefer that the winners would be chosen by who actually wins.

Anyways, I had another idea (most likely a separate event). I thought it might be interesting if we had an AI season (explanation below), but it might require more work than what people would want.

Hidden information:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me from another thread

There has been some talk in the past about having another AI tournament, but I think it would be interesting if we had an AI season. This would work similar to how many sports run their seasons, and would have a playoff system at the end.

Here's how it could work:

-=Starting Up=-
-Franchises would be created by one person, or maybe even multiple people (Each franchise would have a name and maybe a logo)
-Each franchise would consist of a set number of AIs (must be created by the people who are a part of the franchise)
-If there are enough franchises, there may be multiple divisions created (teams in the same division would face each other more during the regular season)

-=Regular Season=-
Depending on which map (or maps) is chosen for the games, each team would have a set amount of AIs they may choose to play in a game (this number would be less than the amount of AIs each team has)
-Every few days, each franchise would have to face another
-AIs may be swapped out before each game, but the other side would not know which is being used until the day of the match
-Winners would be determined by which team actually wins (points would not have a factor in wins unless there are too many ties for this system to work)

-=Playoffs=-
-Each division winner would advance to the playoffs
-A wild card team would be added if needed

-=Optional=-
-Franchises could trade AIs
-Using locations for part of the franchise names (possibly having divisions bases off of these)

Rules:
-AIs may not be changed during the season
-Franchises must decide which AIs they will have on their team before the season starts

Example:
Let's say I have the franchise called the Timmays. The league may be set to play 3v3 maps, but each franchise can have 5 AIs to switch in and out for each match up. So if I have the AIs A, B, C, D, and F, I could put in A, C, and D if I feel those will have the best chance against a certain opponent. Now if I feel that A, B, D, and F are all rush based AIs, I may trade B for someone else's AI that would be based more on higher tier units.

12-09-2007, 07:59 PM

moyack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmay

More work means more chance that people left the tournament IMO, and only doing an AI takes time if you want to obtain a good result.

About franchises.... I don't know.... actually if we keep this tournaments, they will become gradually into the idea you're proposing.

The only thing that I'll do this time is to make them ALL versus ALL without elimination, definitely it's more fair and it's easier to do with Grimoire.

12-09-2007, 08:17 PM	#5
Timmay	Well whatever tournament we do, I'll probably join. I still think it would make more sense that the AI that actually wins would get the win. However, if it's 2v2, I guess points may have to determine the winner if there is no clear victory.

12-09-2007, 08:44 PM

The Elite

Quote:

I still think it would make more sense that the AI that actually wins would get the win.

do you not understand the flaws of elimination?
Ok we have a list of AIs. Ai on top is the best ai, the ai underneith that is the second best etc..

emeraldemon
moyack
The_Elite
Timmay

Ok, if we dont do elimination but do points chances are that emeraldemon will come first, moyack seconds, me third, and you forth. But if we played elimination and the first map was emeraldemon vs moyack then chances are moyack will lose, thus not coming second as he would have if we played points.

12-09-2007, 09:41 PM	#7
TaintedReality	Voted 1v1 because the AI editor is complete shit for 2v2. Make sure to at least run a few small tests of 2v2 before voting for it. I thought 2v2 would be more fun at first but it just sucks - your AI will have pretty bad coordination no matter what you do.

12-10-2007, 06:54 AM	#8
Av3n	Ok I didn't see this thread till now and I'll participate. I voted 2v2 because: I think personally that we should only make 1 AI, we do a round robin(whatever its called) to match up all AI's and play all AI's in 2v2 teams. That mean the results will be easier to pend thus you won't know what AI you are pairing with therefore your AI can still be designed for 1v1 -Av3n

12-10-2007, 10:34 AM	#9
zen87	uhuh, I don't know much about making an AI lol but it will be good to see some 2v2 maps since we are pretty bored with 1v1 isn't it..? In addition 2v2 can have lots of different combination to do than 1v1 (one support one attacker, super hero rusher, etc?)

12-10-2007, 08:24 PM

#10

Timmay

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Elite

I didn't say we had to do elimination. I thought it would make sense that which ever AI has the most wins would be the winner. If the game doesn't end, it would count as a tie, unless that occurs often. Only then would points be used to determine the winner.

12-10-2007, 10:28 PM

#11

moyack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmay

As I pointed out before, elimination has a very bad con: If you put to play in preliminary games 2 very good AI's, only one will pass and the other one will leave the tournament without proving itself against other AIs. The system I propose, allows to have ties, and sums the scores it doesn't matter an AI wins or lose. If an AI is more efficient, then its scores will be higher than other and the sum will give a more impartial decision.

Other importatnt thing taht will be added is a script in GUI which will stop the game if it reach 30 game minutes, like in Blizzard melee tournaments. With this we save time and we become more impartial.

12-11-2007, 08:48 PM	#12
Timmay	I never said we had to do elimination. Anyways, the point of playing a game is to win. If one AI gets more points, but loses, it lost. If you have to use points to determine winners, then I would suggest manually adding in points for wins (a small bonus).

12-12-2007, 05:33 PM	#13
TheSecretArts	1v1, end of story. 2v2 is horrible, AI doesn't understand how to cooperate.

12-13-2007, 01:33 PM

#14

moyack

ok, yesterday I did more tests with the famous problem 2v2, and one more time this has been proved: 2v2 with Ais made with the AI editor simply sucks. The only possible way to improve this is by doing JASS AI. So I'm forced to put my vote for 1v1.

The tournament will start when this poll is closed (12/18/2007). So prepare yourselves. I'll try to give a hand to my AI editor tutorial so people new in the WC3 AI field can have a basic guide.

12-13-2007, 10:08 PM

#15

Timmay

I originally voted for 2v2, but you can count my vote as one for 1v1 if that would be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moyack

The tournament will start when this poll is closed (12/18/2007).

I'm guessing that you didn't mean the AIs were due by this date, but that's what it looks like. You might want to clear that up.